D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Yaarel]

Multiple threads here (a year ago? Maybe?) went into how Enchantment/Charm/Mind Control is probably if we think about it, pretty out of bounds.

I mainly remember the problematic being the use of enchantment magic for nonconsensual sex, vaguely reminiscent of a daterape drug.

It seems easy to avoid this kind of mind control in D&D, by emphasizing that a charmed victim can still refuse anything repugnant.

 

[Synthil]

Why even keep slavery, actually?

Because slavers make for enemies you can fight without guilt. Always evil races are thankfully used less and less. So having bad guys that are obviously evil is an easy choice. Same with fascists, cult leaders, serial killers and people who talk in the theater.

I would never use slavery based on race, however. Or any kind of bigotry that reproduces real world bigotry. But slavery/serfdom/forced labor in general, I think is too universally condemned, nowadays to reproduce naughty word real world beliefs.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

After several generations the mind-controll shouldn't be necessary because the new generations have been enough indoctrinated.

A dark lord of Ravenloft had got almost absolute mind control, but he was changed in the last Ed. And there are some D&D creatures as mind-control parasites.

* A little trick I would allow in the lore is there is a permanent planar between both Kalidnay, the dread domain (Ravenloft) and the original from Athas. Really in the middle between both there is a "mirror domain", the secret operation base of a cabala of the elder elemental eye, and a secret lair by Vecna...or Azalin Rex? Some time there are visitors from the Far Realm, or the elemental chaos of Limbo.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Does anyone know the artist for these images?

 

[Cergorach]

The pirates from History books attacked villages in the coast to catch slaves. Should we ban Peter Pan and all books for children with pirates?

Ban is a strong word, that is not what's happening here either. Certain publishers have identified their target audience and a large part of that doesn't want certain subject matter in the books they buy. That doesn't stop you or anyone else from making books with that subject matter, just don't expect a huge audience for it...

210 years ago a collection of fairy tales was released for children. A 125 years after release, Disney released sanitized versions in animated movie form of those fairy tales. We all grew up with the sanitized versions of those fairy tales, the 1812 version of Grimms' Fairy Tales was no longer sold to every household, and especially not for children. Society changes, often not by banning things, but the next generation moving on from what the previous generations did.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

"Under the Moons of Mars" by Joe Jusko and "Terrestrial Voyager" by Rodney Matthews. I guessed there were one of the sources of inspiration for DS.

* I am thinking about a transitional setting, like Ravenloft or Witchlight. Maybe in the elemental Limbo. The original would be demiplanes for dragons, Io's blood islands, but someones were stolen or conquered by defilers.

 

[Imaro]

I get that. There are a certain category of shows from Hollywood that I have avoided completely because reasons I'm unable to explain here.

But are you equating slavery in RPGs to black trauma? Mindflayers with their Gith, Giants with their Dwarves, Drow with their slaves...etc
My perception of slavery is, and this may seem brutally cold, a natural evolution of society.
And the reason I've come to this conclusion is because of our disappointing human history. So it's not a far stretch to say slavery would likely exist in a fantasy setting especially when the physical differences (nevermind cultural) are far greater than skin colour.

To answer your question no, I'm not. Right now I believe there is nuance and context to issues so I am not claiming every instance of slavery in D&D can be equated to black trauma. As it sits now the references to slavery are so small and scattered they can easilly be overlooked and ignored for any particular game and are not in and of themselves a necessity to play D&D.

That said... My argument from the beginning of this has been that I can understand and I empathize with WotC finding Dark Sun problematic and choosing not ot publish it (as opposed to those who can't seem to see what the problem is or think WotC is somehow wrong for the choice)... and not just for slavery, but that's been one of the things that instantly stood out to me as a black American. Why? Because by publishing Dark Sun WotC is by necessity putting the trappings of slavery and all that entails (as well as many other problematic setting elements) front and center for 12+ year olds to utilize in their games. I don't care how well the treatment of said issues are, you put them in the hands of pre-teens... hell even some teens and up and you should expect a lack of maturity in dealing with said issues.

Now in America (not sure about other places) antebellum slavery has been so intrinsically made a part of black people's identity (especially through it's constant focus by American media) that when the said pre-teen or whoever decides slavery is funny, a joke should be made about it, let's act it out, etc. it will...

1. Inevitably fall first on the black kid or kids sitting at the table as that will be the most natural target for a slavery joke... or the most obvious person that should be a slave vs. a templar will be the black kid playing and so on.

2. Black people are already a rarity in this hobby and basically non-present in parts of it. I enjoy Worlds Without Number & OSE but there are nearly no black people in the OSR scene, even among those who have stepped into gaming the OSR is found distasteful for the most part because of the reputation of many of it's players and creators...and this is something WotC doesn't want for their brand... something I don't want for their brand and Dark Sun has a real chance of being the product that can cause some to view D&D with the same distaste.

Also I know I am talking about slavery in Dark Sun from the PoV of a black American man... because I am one but these sme concerns apply to black women, daughters as well as just girls and women who play. I just don't have the faith that some do in all gamers treating the setting elements of the game, as well as the people they are gaming with, with the respect and gravity necessary for this not to become a cluster.... for WotC at some point.

As to whether slavery would exist or not in a fantasy culture... it's fantasy, whatever you want to exist is in it. You can justify it however you want but it's all made up.

 

[MGibster]

Which is why I have a real problem with the very simplistic yes/no of the OP. On the purely abstract? Sure it’s a great idea to use real world problems in the game. But when it comes time to actually be specific, everyone starts hemming and hawing and no one wants to actually be the one to put a foot forward.

I think the onus is on those who insist it isn't okay or that it's only okay when handled certain ways to tell us the proper way to do it.

If you think it’s so clear that wotc or any other publisher should be able to bang out a Dark Sun without any hitches, let’s see you do it.

Oh, no, I've gone on record as saying WotC can't publish it because of the current climate. I'm perfectly fine with slavery existing in Dark Sun, but it would upset enough people that I wouldn't recommend publishing the game today. Not because I think it'd be wrong to publish, but because it'd just be a bad business move.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But because a city of mind-controlled citizens is more fantasy and less reallife, it helps avoids the ick of historical slavery.

Meanwhile, the implications of such mind control lean into horror.

History is our template for how thinking beings behave, warts and all. To me, fantasy and science fiction are about making specific changes and seeing how that affects that template, not about simply removing the bad parts and keeping the rest unchanged. Everything, good and bad, affects the whole, and the story doesn't make sense if you remove elements and don't account for them.

There have been some great alternative ideas here, and all of them deserve to exist...but as their own settings.

 

[OldOwlbear]

To respond to some of the concerns voiced in the last page or two - why should we be okay with creative expression being held to a moral standard based on our worst expectations of the audience? How is that at all fair to creators and consumers who are able to respectfully handle sensitive topics?

Beyond that, as I’ve asked before, how far does that standard go? When is it okay to portray slavery again in fiction? When does it become not okay to portray things like self harm or war in fiction because they may not be handled well by the audience or may remind impacted people of their trauma? I fully respect and recognize the latter’s reality, but I cannot see how it is sensible to expect others to limit their creative outlets - as long as they are not intentionally seeking to cause harm - to meet the possible concerns of individuals who can choose to not be part of the audience.

I understand that WotC made a business decision and recognize it’s reality, my issue is with the perspective on sensitive content that caused them to make that decision. It feels incredibly frustrating to want to create or enjoy creative fiction in any format and to be concerned that it may not meet the moral expectations of others.

I would never expect my mom to watch or play anything set in a war for example because that would bring up severe trauma, but I also would not want society to expect creators to avoid the subject on her behalf.