Darksun Character Generation/Half Giant?

[Zardnaar]

In ye good olde day with Darksun instead of rolling 3d6 or 4d6 drop the lowest you rolled 5d4 or 6d4 drop the lowest.

Now I am wrking on the Kreen and Half Giants based heavily on the 2E Darksun box. This means large half giants and nasty kreen which will be more powerful than the PHB. To balance it out I was thinking that the normal races can have a bonus ASI at level 1 or roll 5d6 drop the lowest 2 for ability scores.

With racial penalties being OK as per Volos Guide to Monster the Half Giant will be large sized and perhaps have the following.

+4 strength
+2 con
-2 Int/Wis/Cha

For the large bit I am wondering if they would get the extra dice of damage like the other large races and the other races get a bonus ASI to make up for it. They would retain the 2E ability to use two handed normal weapons in one hand so they could dual wield Greatswords or whatever or use a large great sword for 3d6 damage or greataxe for 2d12 damage which is worth about half a feat IMHO (compare with Polearm master).

Probably would not use feats on Darksun to easy (healer, inspiring leader, warcaster etc). Another option would be have some new feats and approved ones from the PHB only. In that event other races would have a bonus feat level 1.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The "official" WotC position is large sized PCs aren't allowed in 5e, full stop. Obviously, a Homebrew DM can allow what they like, but I would not allow them to use extra large weapons or give them extra damage dice. Remember, ECL was used to try and balance such OP advantages, and in third edition large PCs got a penalty to AC, stealth and to hit rolls.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Personally, I don't know if I'd actually create a set of rules and mechanics for Half-Giants right now. Deciding whether or not they can wield large weapons, what their stat bonus are, and what the other races get in compensation. Rather, I'd probably wait until character creation occurs and see what the players want to play first. Then and only then worry about whether you need to "balance" things between the races, and which racial mod stuff will be fine for any half-giant PC you might have.

So for instance... if one of your players decides they want to play a half-giant (even without knowing what the mechanical stat bonuses are going to be for it) and they end up being not only a Fighter but the only primary melee warrior in the group... then you can give him the high STR bonus and let him wield heavy weapons with one hand without real issue because he won't be compared to anyone else. The other players will be playing rogues or defilers or whatever and their focus in combat will be different enough that the half-giant tank character can dish out the damage while absorbing it.

Likewise... if it turns out one of your players decides they want to play a half-giant but then goes "off-brand" with it do-to-speak... like they want to play a druid or something... then perhaps you won't want to give the half-giant a +4 to STR but then a -2 to all the mental stats. You could downgrade your half-giant block to +2 STR / +1 CON and then the druid can come out of that without having its WIS hammered. Which means your half-giant remains balanced against the rest of the PCs.

But... the one thing you probably don't want is to have one player select a half-giant melee PC and another select like a wood elf melee PC, and then have the half-giants stats make him SO overpowered compared to the wood elf that the wood-elf gets short shrift the entire campaign. Its only at that point that you might have to be more judicious in deciding what stats to give a potential half-giant race so that you don't have a bummed wood elf player who pales in comparison every fight.

That's something we often times need to consider when worrying about whether is something unbalanced. You don't need to worry about it in a vacuum... it only really ends up mattering if you get players for whom the unbalancing has a chance to affect their PCs. Is Great-Weapon Master unbalanced? Well, if you don't have any PCs that take it, or you only have a single melee weapon warrior and everybody else is at range or throwing AoEs... you might never see the comparison to other PCs to notice if it is.

 

[epithet]

I thought about this in the context of the recent centaur/minotaur UA article, and I came to the conclusion that the idea of trying to force intuitively large creatures into a medium size was bull excrement.

I find that a level 1 feat is a great tool for defining your character, and my group has been using them since the beginning. It seems to me that the easy way to deal with large characters in that context is to make the level 1 feat a mandatory "Large PC" feat. If you don't want to do that at level 1, you could mandate that the large race PC would start as a medium teenager and become large with the first ASI.

When it comes down to it, the size difference isn't that big a deal in terms of game mechanics. You add an extra die to weapon attacks, which is not unlike adding your stat bonus - it will average out to 3 or 4 points of damage per hit. Compare that to heavy armor master, which resists 3 points per hit - it's certainly in the range of other feats, mechanically. Being large also carries some drawbacks, making you squeeze through 5 foot openings and find another way around anything smaller than that. Your armor should be priced like barding for a mount, your food and water consumption should be at least doubled (charitably assuming some economy of scale vis your metabolism) or more realistically quadrupled. Even the extra die for attacks depends on the availability of weapons for your size. I'd let a large character use a versatile weapon one-handed with the two-handed damage, but that's barely a +1 damage per hit benefit. I'd say a large character could use a medium 2 hander with one hand, but with a -1 to hit because of balance.

Overall, I see nothing about a large character that would break my game. I think that the refusal of Wiz to even consider a large PC is part of their ongoing commitment to simplify D&D to the point where it is easy for new players and DMs to pick up, and while I appreciate that objective I think it doesn't need to rule out more complex mechanics for those of us who have the desire to use them. Of course, we tend to just make the rules we want to play if official sources fail to provide them, so I guess Wiz might be right to keep it simple for the newbies.

Edit: I think another point worth making is that you can handle stat balance by using a point-buy system and requiring a minimum STR for your large characters. If you want a centaur ranger DEX build, that's fine - but you still have to have at least a 16 strength after your racial bonuses. Of course, if you want a minotaur barbarian that's not much of an impediment.

 

[Zardnaar]

I thought about this in the context of the recent centaur/minotaur UA article, and I came to the conclusion that the idea of trying to force intuitively large creatures into a medium size was bull excrement.

I find that a level 1 feat is a great tool for defining your character, and my group has been using them since the beginning. It seems to me that the easy way to deal with large characters in that context is to make the level 1 feat a mandatory "Large PC" feat. If you don't want to do that at level 1, you could mandate that the large race PC would start as a medium teenager and become large with the first ASI.

When it comes down to it, the size difference isn't that big a deal in terms of game mechanics. You add an extra die to weapon attacks, which is not unlike adding your stat bonus - it will average out to 3 or 4 points of damage per hit. Compare that to heavy armor master, which resists 3 points per hit - it's certainly in the range of other feats, mechanically. Being large also carries some drawbacks, making you squeeze through 5 foot openings and find another way around anything smaller than that. Your armor should be priced like barding for a mount, your food and water consumption should be at least doubled (charitably assuming some economy of scale vis your metabolism) or more realistically quadrupled. Even the extra die for attacks depends on the availability of weapons for your size. I'd let a large character use a versatile weapon one-handed with the two-handed damage, but that's barely a +1 damage per hit benefit. I'd say a large character could use a medium 2 hander with one hand, but with a -1 to hit because of balance.

Overall, I see nothing about a large character that would break my game. I think that the refusal of Wiz to even consider a large PC is part of their ongoing commitment to simplify D&D to the point where it is easy for new players and DMs to pick up, and while I appreciate that objective I think it doesn't need to rule out more complex mechanics for those of us who have the desire to use them. Of course, we tend to just make the rules we want to play if official sources fail to provide them, so I guess Wiz might be right to keep it simple for the newbies.

Edit: I think another point worth making is that you can handle stat balance by using a point-buy system and requiring a minimum STR for your large characters. If you want a centaur ranger DEX build, that's fine - but you still have to have at least a 16 strength after your racial bonuses. Of course, if you want a minotaur barbarian that's not much of an impediment.

A Centaur I have seen is restricted to normal size weapons due to human body.

A half giant would not have that restriction hence why I think a bonus feat/ASI for non half giants would be the way to go.

 

[Satyrn]

A Centaur I have seen is restricted to normal size weapons due to human body.

A half giant would not have that restriction hence why I think a bonus feat/ASI for non half giants would be the way to go.

I would definitely go with the feat/asi instead of changing how ability scores are rolled. I would like thatthe feat means when the giant is attaking with his giant weapons I could point to my feat and say "yeah, that's I got instead" and won't feel like I'm missing out on the power bump.

Changing the ability score generation might result in the same bump, but there's nothing to point to

 

[Satyrn]

Oh, and I might find using different ability score generation a little irritating since it means choosing my race woukd have to be the first thing I did, and that's not normal for me.

I mean, it's not a dealbreaker. I'd adjust and go along with it in order to play in your Darksun game, but do prefer when these sorts of changes fit more seamlessly.

 

[Remathilis]

Half-giant: use goliath stats.

Done.

 

[Zardnaar]

Half-giant: use goliath stats.

Done.

Completely different race and really really lame. I am basically ignoring 4E entirely and the 2E metaplot, revised boxed set and things like Dragon Kings, City by the Silt Sea etc. Some tables allow bonus feats at elvel 1 so a human I suppose would have +1 to all stats and a bonus feat.

Back to the 1991 boxed set.

 

[Remathilis]

In ye good olde day with Darksun instead of rolling 3d6 or 4d6 drop the lowest you rolled 5d4 or 6d4 drop the lowest.

Now I am wrking on the Kreen and Half Giants based heavily on the 2E Darksun box. This means large half giants and nasty kreen which will be more powerful than the PHB. To balance it out I was thinking that the normal races can have a bonus ASI at level 1 or roll 5d6 drop the lowest 2 for ability scores.

With racial penalties being OK as per Volos Guide to Monster the Half Giant will be large sized and perhaps have the following.

+4 strength
+2 con
-2 Int/Wis/Cha

For the large bit I am wondering if they would get the extra dice of damage like the other large races and the other races get a bonus ASI to make up for it. They would retain the 2E ability to use two handed normal weapons in one hand so they could dual wield Greatswords or whatever or use a large great sword for 3d6 damage or greataxe for 2d12 damage which is worth about half a feat IMHO (compare with Polearm master).

Probably would not use feats on Darksun to easy (healer, inspiring leader, warcaster etc). Another option would be have some new feats and approved ones from the PHB only. In that event other races would have a bonus feat level 1.

Wait, so just to make sure I read your idea right...

I roll 5d4 for my Strength, getting a 5-20 based on roll.

Then I get a +4 Strength bonus.

THEN I get a ASI at first level I can put into my Strength if I wanted...

So I could have a strength score of 9-26 at first level. Assuming I rolled that sweet 20, I could attack with a +10 to hit and be doing 2d6+8 damage on a hit with a stone maul, ignoring bonuses like Great weapon fighter, rage bonus, or Great Weapon Mastery.

Bounded accuracy? What's that?!?