Darkvision and hiding

[capnfro]

This is something that I have been wrestling with for a while. Thankfully nothing about it has yet come up in one of my games but I have a feeling it may soon.

I realize that darkvision negates any concealment that something may have for being in a dark area. However, if something hides in a dark area and is hiding there before a creature with darkvision approaches what happens? Will the creature with darkvision be able to see the hiding creature or will they need to make a spot check to locate the hiding creature?

My initial feeling is that they would have to make a spot check but I wanted to get some other opinions on it. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

 

[Telperion]

Without darkvision:
A man sits in a dark room, making no sound and staying still.
Another man comes to the room and looks around. Since there is no light he needs to strain his senses (ie. make a Spot check) to notice that there is someone in the room with him.

With darkvision:
The same man is still sitting in the room and this time the lights are turned on.
Another man comes into the room. Because the room is fully lit there is no concealment. The man who just entered doesn't need to strain his senses to notice the man sitting in the room, unless he is positioned in a way that makes noticing him difficult (for example: if the man sitting in the room was actually sitting on the floor behind a sofa, which fully covers his profile).

 

[Lamoni]

To expand on what Telperion said, I would say it is situational to the surroundings. If the only thing available to make a hide check with is some darkness, I'd say the person with darkvision doesn't need to make any spot check. Standing in the corner is a great way to hide if it is pitch dark there, but otherwise it isn't really hiding. On the other hand, if there are different objects, even if they don't provide much concealment (semi-tall grass, potted plants, etc) the spot check would be required as normal.

Edit: Just thought that I'd add that hiding in the rules usually assumes movement so a large part of hiding is just not standing where people are looking at the moment. The other part is making yourself look like an object when they do look at you... which is much easier to do when you are mostly concealed by an object and can hold very still. Hiding with no concealment (with any chance of success) requires extraordinary abilities.

 

[Nail]

If the only thing available to make a hide check with is some darkness, I'd say the person with darkvision doesn't need to make any spot check.

Exactly.

1) You need concealment or cover to Hide.
2) You have no concealment in darkness (not the spell!) to someone with darkvision.
3) You cannot Hide from someone with darkvision if your only concealment is darkness.

Caveat: darkvision has a range of 60 ft. Outside of that range, you could be Hidden by the darkness.

 

[sfedi]

Not at all.

The guy with Darkvision would spot it automatically if he's not hiding (i.e. under concealment, cover, etc.)

An analogy to this would be a person walking with a spotlight over his head that lights 60 ft around, and as he walks forward, let's say in a corridor, a creature appears.
No spot check, youjust see it.
OTOH, if the creature was behind some crates, a Hide vs Spot would be in order.

 

[capnfro]

Cool. Thanks guys for the different perspective. It was the part about darkvision only being in black and white that kept throwing me off.

I had kinda pictured it like someone in a white room wearing white clothes. If the lights are on in the room, it is really hard to see them.

 

[Lamoni]

I had kinda pictured it like someone in a white room wearing white clothes. If the lights are on in the room, it is really hard to see them.

That is an interesting idea... does someone wearing camoflauge (sp?) need concealment? By the rules they do, but you might get your DM to make an exception if you could somehow make convincing camoflauge.

It is the same for normal vision as it would be for darkvision though. If someone was wearing white against white walls with white face paint, they might be more difficult to see, but that is true whether or not the person is seeing with darkvision or not. You could have the same situation by replacing all the white in the scenario with green.

 

[rrealm]

I stand corrected.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Actually, there's no such rule (30' clearly, 60' shadowy) for darkvision. It's 60', clearly, no other comments made.

 

[Liminal Syzygy]

A similar situation can exist with low-light vision. A torch illuminates a 20' radius and provides shadowy illumination out to 40'. So someone hiding would have to have cover to hide within 20' of the light source. 20' to 40' the person hiding could use the concealment provided by the shadows. However, if a human and an elf are in the room, the elf sees up to 40' as normal illumination so would clearly see the hider pressing himself into a hypothetical shadowy room corner 30' from the torch.

Back up to Teleperion's post:

Without darkvision:
A man sits in a dark room, making no sound and staying still.
Another man comes to the room and looks around. Since there is no light he needs to strain his senses (ie. make a Spot check) to notice that there is someone in the room with him.

I don't think that is correct. If the hider was in pure darkness then I don't think there can be any spot check at all.