Darkvision through a telescope

[Mistwell]

The example of noticing something large in plain sight obviously already takes into account distance modifiers... it's simply referring to something anyone would notice. Putting aside a strict reading of the rules, which I still don't agree you are right on, someone can obviously see large city a mile away from a hilltop, or the moon on a cloudless night. There is no such thing as a limit to how far you can see with normal vision. None. You could theoretically see something on the other side of the universe if it was large enough.

Retreading seeing cities and planets again (fourth time now)? It's a strawman, and I don't see the value in that. The rules in question are for encounters only. Seeing a city, the moon, or a star is not an encounter. For situations involving initiative, and when it starts, and whether you can notice something that is part of an actual encounter itself, we use these rules. For situations involving role playing aspects and campaign color you don't need any rules at all.

So for encounters, large is a defined term in this game. We know what a large creature or object is (it occupies a 10' square), and it's different from a small creature or object, or a gargantuan one. The DC to see a large object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view is 0, modified by circumstances, the spot rules for seeing things, sight distances, etc.. The DC to see a small sized creature or object would be higher, and lower for a gargantuan one.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So for encounters, large is a defined term in this game. We know what a large creature or object is (it occupies a 10' square), and it's different from a small creature or object, or a gargantuan one. The DC to see a large object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view is 0, modified by circumstances, the spot rules for seeing things, sight distances, etc.. The DC to see a small sized creature or object would be higher, and lower for a gargantuan one.

So when you're describing the 'absolute limit' of distance for normal vision, that limit varies depending on the size of what you're looking at, right?

Let's say the DC to see a Large object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view is 0; for the untrained, Wis 10 creature, the 'absolute limit' of how far away he can see that Large object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view is 200 feet.

Let's say the DC to see a Medium object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view is 1; for the untrained, Wis 10 creature, the 'absolute limit' of how far away he can see that Medium object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view is 190 feet.

Allowing for variation in what DC you'd call the Medium object, does that fit with what you're advocating?

Does that mean that with a spyglass, the creature can potentially see the Medium object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view up to 200 feet away (but no further), since it is magnified to twice its size, becoming effectively Large?

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

So when you're describing the 'absolute limit' of distance for normal vision, that limit varies depending on the size of what you're looking at, right?

Let's say the DC to see a Large object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view is 0; for the untrained, Wis 10 creature, the 'absolute limit' of how far away he can see that Large object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view is 200 feet.

Let's say the DC to see a Medium object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view is 1; for the untrained, Wis 10 creature, the 'absolute limit' of how far away he can see that Medium object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view is 190 feet.

Allowing for variation in what DC you'd call the Medium object, does that fit with what you're advocating?

Yes, to all of the above.

Does that mean that with a spyglass, the creature can potentially see the Medium object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view up to 200 feet away (but no further), since it is magnified to twice its size, becoming effectively Large?

-Hyp.

That's the issue (for me). I am not sure what effect x2 magnification should have.

One reasonable interpretation is to enlarge the relative size of the object, changing the DC to make it easier. That view is more accurate, but it's also a lot more complicated (since doubling the size of an object doesn't necessarily easily translate into the next larger size up). If you go with that view, I would not extend the distance you can see with darkvision while using a spyglass (beyond modifying the spot DC, if that comes into play).

Another reasonable interpretation is to double the maximum distance you can see objects. That version is easier to adjudicate, but probably less accurate than the first one. If you go with that interpretation, then I would extend the maximum distance darkvision works while using a spyglass.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's the issue (for me). I am not sure what effect x2 magnification should have.

One reasonable interpretation is to enlarge the relative size of the object, changing the DC to make it easier. That view is more accurate, but it's also a lot more complicated (since doubling the size of an object doesn't necessarily easily translate into the next larger size up). If you go with that view, I would not extend the distance you can see with darkvision while using a spyglass (beyond modifying the spot DC, if that comes into play).

That's how I see it. It doesn't make sense to me to take "magnified to twice its size" to mean the one that doesn't treat the object as twice its size.

As far as doubling the size goes, it either becomes the next size category up, or it doesn't... and in most cases, it does. If it does, change the DC. If it doesn't, don't change the DC.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

That's how I see it. It doesn't make sense to me to take "magnified to twice its size" to mean the one that doesn't treat the object as twice its size.

As far as doubling the size goes, it either becomes the next size category up, or it doesn't... and in most cases, it does. If it does, change the DC. If it doesn't, don't change the DC.

-Hyp.

I might go that route as well. But, I don't think it's completely illogical to use the other method, and it's the method the original poster seems to be looking for. If you take x2 magnification to the logical conclusion, it means you can see twice as far. Because the point of your vision where it ordinarily became too difficult to see the necessary details are now twice as big, making it easier to see. Which means you should be able to see roughly twice as far as you could without it (which is generally how 2x Magnification works with things like telescopes).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Which means you should be able to see roughly twice as far as you could without it (which is generally how 2x Magnification works with things like telescopes).

But if we say that a Large object is DC 0 and a Medium object is DC X to Spot, this model falls down... because we can have a Large object which is an exact 2x replica of a Medium object (therefore every necessary detail is twice as big), and yet the maximum Spotting distances will not be double for everyone, based on the values of X and the respective Spot bonuses.

-Hyp.

 

[Branduil]

Retreading seeing cities and planets again (fourth time now)? It's a strawman, and I don't see the value in that. The rules in question are for encounters only. Seeing a city, the moon, or a star is not an encounter. For situations involving initiative, and when it starts, and whether you can notice something that is part of an actual encounter itself, we use these rules. For situations involving role playing aspects and campaign color you don't need any rules at all.

So for encounters, large is a defined term in this game. We know what a large creature or object is (it occupies a 10' square), and it's different from a small creature or object, or a gargantuan one. The DC to see a large object that is part of an encounter that is in plain view is 0, modified by circumstances, the spot rules for seeing things, sight distances, etc.. The DC to see a small sized creature or object would be higher, and lower for a gargantuan one.

Okay.

So by your interpretation, I couldn't see a Dragon attacking a city 1 mile away, and he couldn't see me, even if I was on fire and holding up a huge sign that said "Hey Dragon, I'm coming to kill you!"

Is this correct?

 

[Mistwell]

Okay.

So by your interpretation, I couldn't see a Dragon attacking a city 1 mile away, and he couldn't see me, even if I was on fire and holding up a huge sign that said "Hey Dragon, I'm coming to kill you!"

Is this correct?

If seeing the Dragon was the start of the encounter (it isn't by the way in most games - unless you actually go to the melee grid to move a mile until you arrive, all while in initiative). Unless your spot check was high enough, if it were the encounter, then absolutely correct.

See for example the DMG rule that specifies when an encounter starts and how one party sees another party, and what rules you use to determine who sees who when.

Honestly, we have ALWAYS played using spot checks to know when one party sees another party (even if nobody is hiding). It's not a house rule, it's right out of the DMG and the spot rules and the skills DC chart. I'm kinda surprised people assume their characters can see anything at any distance assuming no obstructions. I mean poor half-elves once again! They get keen eyesight, which the rules specifically say translates into a bonus to their spot check, but EVERYONE apparently has extraordinarily fantastic eyesight in some games that can see anything at any distance provided there is no obstruction! Look, an ant on the ground at 1000 yards!

 

[Branduil]

If seeing the Dragon was the start of the encounter (it isn't by the way in most games - unless you actually go to the melee grid to move a mile until you arrive, all while in initiative). Unless your spot check was high enough, if it were the encounter, then absolutely correct.

See for example the DMG rule that specifies when an encounter starts and how one party sees another party, and what rules you use to determine who sees who when.

Honestly, we have ALWAYS played using spot checks to know when one party sees another party (even if nobody is hiding). It's not a house rule, it's right out of the DMG and the spot rules and the skills DC chart. I'm kinda surprised people assume their characters can see anything at any distance assuming no obstructions. I mean poor half-elves once again! They get keen eyesight, which the rules specifically say translates into a bonus to their spot check, but EVERYONE apparently has extraordinarily fantastic eyesight in some games that can see anything at any distance provided there is no obstruction! Look, an ant on the ground at 1000 yards!

If your interpretation is correct, can you tell me why it's possible to shoot 1000 feet with a normal longbow? If there is a maximum distance to spot of only a few hundred feet, what's the point of having a weapon that can shoot father? Why would the far shot feat even exist? And wouldn't it mention somewhere that even though you can shoot this far, it doesn't matter since you can't see your enemies?

 

[Mistwell]

If your interpretation is correct, can you tell me why it's possible to shoot 1000 feet with a normal longbow?

Because with a high enough spot check, a large enough target, and circumstance bonuses (like knowing the character went in that direction), you can hit things at 1000 feet.

If there is a maximum distance to spot of only a few hundred feet,

Who said that? There is a maximum distance for any given character and target and circumstances, but given the right character and target and circumstances it can extend quite far (particularly with a spy glass, if you choose the interpretation I suggested).

what's the point of having a weapon that can shoot father? Why would the far shot feat even exist?

Most folks I know that take far shot use it for things with a shorter range to begin with (like a dagger). It would be pretty silly to take far shot with a composite longbow, as you cannot see the target, and frankly even if you could the opportunity to have a target that far is so rare that it would be a waste of a feat.

And wouldn't it mention somewhere that even though you can shoot this far, it doesn't matter since you can't see your enemies?

It does. It's in the spot rules, and the chart for DCs for skills, and the DMG.

Tell me, what does DC 0 to notice a large object in plain sight mean to you, if there is no need to hit a DC at all? How can there be any question that you need to roll a spot check for things in plain sight, once you saw that chart?

And I'll ask again...can your character notice an ant in plain view 1000 yards away? If not, why not, given you believe there are no rolls necessary to spot something in plain view, regardless of distance and size?