Darth Vader: Alignment

[Kahuna Burger]

Lawful evil based on his behavior in the original trilogy.

As for "Ani". 1) he is a kid and then a teen in the second trilogy. Is it really that surprising that he was more chaotic in his youth than as a powerful warlord type? 2) I'm skeptical of his goodness. He was a kid, he loved his mommy, he loved Padme, he admired and rebelled against his teacher... What did he actually do that points to a Good alignment rather than benign and well aimed neutrality?

 

[Umbran]

Chaotic people can support folks they care about, or from whom they have something to gain. I see no sign that Vader is loyal to the office of the Emperor - at best, he's loyal to the person of Palpatine. At worst, he follows because Palpatine can kick his half-robotic butt, and at the same time is the only source of greater power.

The "rule the galaxy together" line, in fact, stands as evidence that he is not loyal at all - he's ready and willing to kill of the Emperor when he gets enough power to do so. That's not Lawful.

Note that - the Sith are about personal power. That's putting the desires of the individual above the needs of the many. They do away with the Senate - thus removing any semblance of them being bound by any law themselves. Sorry, none of this suggests Lawful people to me.

 

[Vigilance]

The Dark Side, in general, is not lawful. It is quite explicitly about giving into emotion, letting go of constraint.

Don't confuse the alignment of the Empire with the alignment of those at the helm - the Empire is lawful, but Palpatine and Vader are above the law.

I disagree. I think Palpatine is the FOUNTAIN of law in the medieval sense, which is perfect since SW is fantasy anyway.

How can the source of law break the law?

Also, even if the Emperor is CE, Vader is still following orders and obeying hierarchy, both of Palpatine and of Tarkin.

But I'd say both Palpatine and Vader are LE, living lives as regimented as the Jedi, while thinking their power gives them the right to rule.

 

[HellHound]

I'm with Umbran here. They feel they are above the law, betraying whoever the need to to get what they want. That is Chaotic.

Creating law does not make one lawful.

I for one LOVE law and order and making people follow them. But at the same time, I cannot stand being constrained by such laws. That's why I like being an admin over at CM - I get to impose law, and break it as I like.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I agree with Umbran entirely. Obedience does not automatically equal lawful. And yes, it's entirely possible for the head of a relatively lawful government not to be lawful himself.

And yes, the dark side is all about giving in to emotion, anger in particular.

And I'll add one other example:

"I am altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further."

Not a lawful attitude, however you slice it.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

In some ways I think the Sith/Jedi divide is as much about Law and Chaos as it is about Good and Evil...

Which one is which?

There are always two Sith, divided as master and apprentice. The only ones we have seen lead structured, disciplined lives.

On the other hand we have "trust your instincts", "Trust your feelings", truth through leaps of insight... Jedi have the whole meditative monkish lawfulness going on, but at the same time seem a little too "free your mind"-ish for me to rule out their chaotic side. (neutrality through duality rather than balance or apathy?)

 

[Grue]

Definitely CE. Original or prequel he could care less about order as it applies to him. The only order he's going to impose on the universe is his whim, he absolutely knows the Emperor took power under false pretenses (and thusly is totally illegitimate), he has no loyalty either to his supposed liege or to his subordinates.

Lucas makes it very clear the core of Vader is fear and hate (and that's the Emperor's lever to control him). To be neutral, he'd have to display some lawful traits... from his behavior with Tarkin, breaking the deal with Lando, and how he turned to the dark side I really don't think he has any.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The "rule the galaxy together" line, in fact, stands as evidence that he is not loyal at all - he's ready and willing to kill of the Emperor when he gets enough power to do so. That's not Lawful.

Loyalty or lack thereof doesn't hinge lawfulness. Or are Baatezu suddenly bastions of loyal behavior?

Note that - the Sith are about personal power. That's putting the desires of the individual above the needs of the many. They do away with the Senate - thus removing any semblance of them being bound by any law themselves. Sorry, none of this suggests Lawful people to me.

I'll tentatively agree that the Sith Code would lean toward Chaos.

However, the way that both Vader and Palpatine in the original trilogy act implies that they want to RULE the galaxy with a highly organized cadre of sychophantic troops through their own personal government, the Empire.

All of that is entirely lawful.

Any Stormtrooper could just as easily be a Formian or a Modron marching to the beat of their ultimate commander, establishing ORDER.

Just because they use hate and fear and aggression and emotional turmoil to their advantage doesn't make them chaotic. They use those emotions to establish control of others' action, unifying the galaxy under a singular, monolithic entity. In the same way that a Devil may take advantage of an emotionally distraught widow to cause her to make a pact to get her husband back, or how fear is controlled by causing those fleeing combat to escape through passes defended with merciless traps.

Emotions aren't necessarily chaotic, though controlling them is certainly Lawful. Vader and Palpatine and the rest of the Sith unleash their emotions, but in a controlled, focused, determined effort, not at the whims and vagaries of Chaos.

That's all law, baby.

 

[LoneWolf23]

Lawful Evil doesn't mean a character can't be selfish and duplicitous. Just look at how Palpatine took over the Republic in the prequals.. Not through random violence or through a violent coup, but by slowly infiltrating the Republic's inner workings, manipulating pawns to arrange a crisis so he could lawfully come to power, then manipulate the system to rid himself of the Jedi, and grant himself supreme power, turning the Republic into the Empire.

Vader is no different. At first, he's little more then Palpatine's living weapon, his personal enforcer. He obeys his orders, follows protocol, and executes his orders to the letter.

"But what about his planned betrayal?" you ask... Simple. It's part of the Rules of the Sith. "Always Two there are: the Master and the Apprentice". In Vader, Luke had found his potential Apprentice. Which made Vader the Master. ...Which made Palpatine superfluous. So, really, he was just following the rules.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Also, turning to the first trilogy, if you listen to what the adult Anakin says, it seems consistent with this. He thinks the Senate is too noisy, too inefficient, too corrupt.

He thinks one man, a powerful man, should have all the authority to govern.

Actually, he goes one step further on the Lawful axis: he actually says the various people should be made to agree, not simply obey.

Even when he was Anakin, Vader was more Lawful than Chaotic.