Darth Vader: Alignment

[blargney the second]

Neutral Evil. Darth Vader uses law and chaos in equal measure to serve his evilness.

 

[Treebore]

In the same speech where he proposed overthrowing the Emperor so they could rule the galaxy as father and son? Uh-huh. Sure.

How does that mean he would maintain law and order? Vader just wanted to be the big boss. He was chafing under the oppressive thumb of Palpatine. He just wanted to run things his way.

Don't get me wrong, I see the arguments for lawful evil, etc... I'm just convinced that at the bottom of everything his key motivations and reasonings were based around selfishness. What gave him what he wanted? What made him happy? What did he feel he deserved? When did he think he should have it by?

It was his selfishness that Palpatine used to turn him.

He didn't even love Padme more than he loved himself, otherwise he would have trusted her, or at least give her the benefit of the doubt. But no, she wasn't doing things the way he wanted them, so he declared her a traitor to his love and hurt her. Padme killed herself more than Vader did. She could have lived, if she wanted to. Ultimately she was pretty selfish too. She wasn't even willing to live to raise her children. Her "broken heart" is what killed her.


Still, like I said, I can see the "lawful" side of things, "chaotic" side of things, but ultimately everything he did was to give himself what he wanted.

Like Blargney says, law and chaos were used as tools to achieve his own ends.

The same could be argued for Palpatine, but I think his ultimate goal was "lawful order" administered by him.

Vader just wanted it all for himself. He may have tried to maintain a lawfully ordered empire, but he was nowhere near the tremendously effective manipulator Palpatine was.

So when control of the empire would have started to crumble he would have resorted to his own powers of intimidation and fear to control what he could. It would have been a relatively small part of the Empire in comparison to what Palpatine weaved together his control of.


Who knows? Maybe Vader paid more attention to Palpatines methods fo controlling the Empire than I give him credit for.

Still, he would only appear lawful because that would be the ost effective way for him to maintain the pwoer and control he wanted for himself. Not due to a genuine commitment to law. Just the fact that its an effective technique for maintaining control over something as vast as the Empire.

 

[Li Shenron]

Maybe in a galaxy ruled by Jedis, being a Jedi is rather lawful and being a Sith is rather chaotic.

But once the Sith take over the galaxy, it could become just the other way around...

 

[Shadeydm]

Defintetly LE and you could really see it coming when he insisted Palpatine be allowed to stand trial when Mace decided to execute him in Episode III.

 

[Klaus]

Lawful Evil.

He's all about imposing his will on the universe. He looks to Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Palpatine as authority figures. He yearns for a mentor that recognizes his prodigious powers. He seeks power to keep people he love from dying, from stopping the chaos of the universe. He wants to bypass debate and favors a heavy-handed dictatorship (enlightened, at first). He turns on the Jedi when Palpatine convinces him that the Order has become corrupted.

The fact that he disposes of underlings that displease him doesn't make him any less Lawful. He IS the Law.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Until the apprentice becomes strong enough to kill his master and then take his place. That is how the tanari rule in the abyss; might makes right. Either Vader becomes strong enough to kill the emporer or the emporer kills vader before it happens. It's very chaotic.

How so? There is a clear chain of command, and a straight forward way of altering it. The fact that the method of apprentice replacing master is violent and makes the master no longer exist in no way makes it chaotic. It's a violent lawful system

The Jedi had law and structure when they were big enough to need it. They went to a one on one mentorship and self promotion when decimated. The Sith had the same structure when they skulked in the shadows as when they ruled the galaxy. The fact that one structure is based on violence and "there can be only two" and the other (less fundemental) structure was a meritocracy doesn't make the meritocracy more lawful.

 

[schporto]

Who says he's evil? I mean really he's just doing what's best for the entire republic right? That's the greater good here. This rebellion is causing a lot of fighting and strife. Everything would be better if it was ruled directly by one person - the Emperor. Who are we to question him? Just because he wears black doesn't make him evil. And as for all those 'random' people he killed - they were evil. They were after power and advancement and not really after helping the empire. Not only that but most of them weren't even believers in the power of the force. Heretics I say, heretics!
I mean cripes, just because he wears black and wields a red lightsaber you all think he must be evil. Yeesh. Vader is the good guy, the evil monarchy (Princess Leia anyone?) comes back to power, overthrowing the good Republic (hello, that means democracy!), killing the strongest hero and the lawful and legally appointed leader of the Republic. Luke is the evil one. I mean heck he's wearing black by the end....
(all meant with tongue in cheek to point out that alignments are fairly fickle...)
-cpd

 

[HellHound]

IMO, Doing evil for the greater good still makes you evil. The ends do not justify the means in the alignment system.

 

[hexgrid]

I think that if Vader, despite the obvious lawful-evil trappings of the empire he represents, can't be classified as Lawful Evil, no one can.

It shouldn't be any deeper than that. If you over think the alignment system, you can pretty much assign any alignment to anyone you want.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Maybe in a galaxy ruled by Jedis, being a Jedi is rather lawful and being a Sith is rather chaotic.

But once the Sith take over the galaxy, it could become just the other way around...

Yup. The rebels who take power become the establishment, in time. That's just the way people work.