Darth Vader: Alignment

Vader: What flavor of Evil?

  • Lawful Evil. Bringing order to the galaxy!

    Votes: 220 71.9%
  • Neutral Evil. You don't know the power of the Dark Side!

    Votes: 67 21.9%
  • Chaotic Evil. Becoming more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of!

    Votes: 19 6.2%

I said LE but now I'm thinking NE is much more in line. As others said, he cared about law as long as it served him. He was totally selfish and only served the Emperor to gain more power at which point he would kill him. He didn't honor anything except that which gave him power and then he honored it until he could supplant it or toss it aside.
 

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Vader didn't kill on a whim... he killed underlings who failed him, and he killed rebels who defied him. He never went out of his way to kill innocent people that were inconvenient or off the cuff (as Voldemort in the Potter series did, often). When he was angry, he didn't lash out at people randomly -- he killed those who were responsible for failure and moved on. Seems like a classic example of someone clearing out the ranks of incompetents so that more able people down the heirarchy chain can move up.

Sure he altered the bargain on cloud city with Lando, but why was their a bargain at all? Why did he allow the operation continue in any case and presume to let Lando keep running it as long as he did as he was told? Because it was useful to the Empire, not to Vader personally. Once he had Solo and the others, why didn't he just shut the place down or kill them all, or any of them? Luke would have come anyway, he only needed one alive really... ;) He doesn't seem like someone who got off on random violence and bullying the weak... he had a purpose and worked within an established system to fulfill that purpose. Any deviation or failure to help him achieve what he needed to achieve brought on threats and death. And Vader had no problem leaving the chase in the asteroid field when the Emperor wanted to speak with him... his emotions and individual desires weren't winning over in the heat of that chase, and really never won over in any other moment of the original trilogy until Luke's impending death by the Emperor moved him to save his son. He's even excited to turn his daughter over to the Emperor so that she can serve the Dark Side. Look at how he interacted with Admiral Piett in the original trilogy. He promoted him over an incompetent superior and though he threatened him, allowed him significant 'failures' and never killed him. Look at how he deals with the heroes escaping at the end of Empire... no raging or killing on the bridge of his star destroyer. Plan failed, but seeds sown. Move on to next plan. Very Lawful Evil if you ask me.

I think one of the big themes Lucas was dealing with was the idea of machines versus man... Vader crossed the line from living, emotional person into a cold, calculating machine over the course of the prequel trilogy. So says Obi Wan... I'd go for an intentional lawful evil type, which doesn't mean of course he can't have chaotic moments. He's overwhelmingly a product of the Empire he helped to build... he's not above the law, he is the law.
 

Treebore said:
How does that mean he would maintain law and order? Vader just wanted to be the big boss. He was chafing under the oppressive thumb of Palpatine. He just wanted to run things his way.
You misunderstand me. My comment was directed at Vader being a "good lackey." Good lackeys don't plot to overthrow their masters.

But in any case, yes, Vader wanted to run things his way...his way being Lawful, of course. As I mentioned before, even when he was Anakin, he felt very strongly that the government was too Chaotic, and needed to be forced into Order.

(All of this keeping in mind that Mouseferatu is absolutely right: alignment doesn't actually apply to Star Wars, so this debate is mostly ridiculous.)
 


Shadeydm said:
Defintetly LE and you could really see it coming when he insisted Palpatine be allowed to stand trial when Mace decided to execute him in Episode III.

Bwah? He wanted Palpatine spared so he could save Padme; no other reason than that. Selfish, not lawful or chaotic.
 

Vegepygmy said:
In the same speech where he proposed overthrowing the Emperor so they could rule the galaxy as father and son? Uh-huh. Sure.
What's wanting to rule got to do with being lawful or chaotic? A lawful evil ruler is a tyrant, and a chaotic evil ruler is a warlord.
 

Mouseferatu said:
Selfish, not lawful or chaotic.

How does selfishness preclude lawful or chaotic? Are devils and demons selfless?

And do a couple of isolated events really trump life-long participation in a highly militarized, tyrannical government?

Occam's razor argues for Lawful Evil.
 


hexgrid said:
I think that if Vader, despite the obvious lawful-evil trappings of the empire he represents, can't be classified as Lawful Evil, no one can.

It shouldn't be any deeper than that. If you over think the alignment system, you can pretty much assign any alignment to anyone you want.


Actually, yes, you should be able to. No one is 100% on all the time. People are moody. They may be a certain way most of the time, but everyone gets chaotic and crazy once in a while. People don't always do the right thing or wrong thing.

So no one is a specific alignment all the time. Alignment is more a "generalization" of most of someones behaviour and beliefs.

Where people insist on being a specific alignment at all times is where it gets rediculous.
 

First off, let me say this:

The OP indulged in selective C&P. That was not *all* I said in the first post. He selectively C&P to make his argument sound better.


Now, on to the debate. The OP brought up demons and devils. Nice application of emotional demogaugery there. A bit transparent, but good try. As I said, that is not all I posted in my first post, and that bit of underhanded tactic lent the demons and devils argument far more creedence than it really has.

My stance was that Vader was Chaotic because he could not conform to the lawful Jedi. He gave in to his emotions and it was his impetuousness and emotional rampages that made him fall. Random betrayals because he felt angry and needed to lash out is chaotic behaviour. That is what he did to Padme right at the end.

Selfishness is not a trait of law or chaos. It is a trait of evil. Overthrowing tradition, emotional behaviour, etc., is chaotic.

Just because Vader tolerated Palpy is not a reason to claim he is lawful. Remember that Orcs are Chaotic Evil, and they are described as following the "strongest rule" form of government (this form of government is also described as CE in the DMG). Vader wasn't in the position to challenge Palpy because Palpy was stronger than him or had control over him via the Dark Side (which was one of the quotes the OP listed). He itched to kick Palpy in the nuts, though, to take over, and he would have, except for the pesky power thing. That is how CE governmental bodies work as described by the DMG. That is also classic CE behaviour as described by the PHB.

Just because someone used the Law occasionally is not reason to believe he *believes* in the Law, which is the true sign of lawful behaviour. Vader did not believe in the law, unless he is the law. Most of the Empire's troops were like that (Palleon and that Bakuran guy, Thanas?, were the exceptions, not the rule). They looted, murdered, enslaved, etc., at will across the galaxy, even though, I am sure, if you went and murdered someone, you'd be thrown in a room with 3 walls and bars for violating the law. That is unlawful behaviour.
 

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