D&D General Dave Arneson: Is He Underrated, or Overrated?

[Snarf Zagyg]

The sad thing is that I think the book does have some genuine insights to offer. If you can work your way through the verbiage and manage to grok the stuff about systems design, there are (to my mind) valuable ideas about the very abstract notions that form the root of tabletop RPGs. But getting there is a lot of work, arguably more than it should be, and that's a shame since it means that the book's message will ultimately be lost.

All I will say is that you are more generous in this assessment than I am.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

So close!!!!! I was thinking of that one.

And yet, I think the relative failure of Boot Hill might tell us something. For whatever reason, the alchemy of D&D (the zeitgeist of the 70s with fantasy, the leveling system that provided rewards for continued play, the inclusion of combat, etc.) may have been that added bit of "secret sauce" that led to commercial success.

Or not. You never know with the alternate histories.

Looking at the popularity of fantasy and the Middle Ages in both the 60s and 70s across books, comics, film, and music, it's hard not to see that as a big part of the special sauce that made D&D take off like wildfire. While a wild west or sci-fi game might have still taken off (spaghetti westerns were still going strong then, sci-fi had its own hardcore fandom), people were very much primed to step into a fantastical world.

 

[Reynard]

Looking at the popularity of fantasy and the Middle Ages in both the 60s and 70s across books, comics, film, and music, it's hard not to see that as a big part of the special sauce that made D&D take off like wildfire. While a wild west or sci-fi game might have still taken off (spaghetti westerns were still going strong then, sci-fi had its own hardcore fandom), people were very much primed to step into a fantastical world.

For anyone unfamiliar, here is the Playing At The World blog entry on Western Gunfight.

 

[Clint_L]

I haven't read Kuntz's book. I thought about spending the $15 plus whatever time to do so, but then read this review, which seems pretty fair and objective, and thought better of it:

Advanced Designers & Dragons #49: A Look at Dave Arneson's True Genius - RPGnet

All I can say is that, from everything I've been able to glean over my 40+ years in the hobby, and reading most of the key books on the subject, is that Arneson was definitely instrumental at the ideas phase, Gygax at the ideas and implementation phase (i.e. he did far, far more of the actual labour) and both of them borrowed from a variety of people that were not always acknowledged.

 

[darjr]

For anyone unfamiliar, here is the Playing At The World blog entry on Western Gunfight.

Wow such a great article.

Makes me think that several meta things really helped drive D&Ds success. Things I think many of these other games didn’t have.

A Dungeon Master who could create, nay was required to create, worlds or small bits of them off a template of sorts. They would be self incentivized to find players to experience their creation.

Casual players could participate lowering the bar to entry. The DM and other experienced players would have their own self interest to help new players and to entice those on the fence.

Fantasy, all the rage of the time, and seeming still a new thing. Mysterious and begging to be explored.

 

[darjr]

Oh, also Gen Con. And TSRs presence at the big conventions of the time. Also TSR and Gary and even Dave communicating to the world about D&D.

I think this gets missed alot.

I might have the details or numbers mixed up but I think it was Tim Kask who said they were surprised at their first big tournament. From what I remember he said hundreds of people showed up (800?) paying a hefty price per ticket ($20?)

 

[Baron Opal II]

At one point I tallied up parallel inventions underway, but it was years back…let’s see.

M.A..R. Barker and Greg Stafford were both using their preexisting worlds (Tekumel and Glorantha, respectively) in wargaming, and had storytelling possibilities in mind. I don’t know what kind of mechanics Stafford was using; Barker was refining his Perfected system.

Steve Perrin and friends were doing some wargsming with elements of what became Basic Role Playing and RuneQuest. Anyone know how well they and Stafford knew each other circa 1973?

May be apocryphal, but I'm told Gary set aside the "very first" assembled OD&D box for Greg. Steve Perrin was a name in wargaming and early RPGs in California. He, Stafford, Hargrave, St. Andre, and others in the San Francisco area corresponded with Lake Geneva through letters, newsletters, convention attendance, &c.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I have been lurking in this thread and reading everything. I will do some more of my own reading one day too but wondered what people think about the flavor of D&D.

What I mean is this: we know the roleplay concept had several contributors. Gygax was not alone.

But the IP of D&D…the monsters, the drow, mind flayers, goblinoids as presented, demons and devils, Chromatic dragons, Tiamat…how much of that was Gygaxian vs lArnesonian?

For me this stuff is just so fantastic. The stories and lore, the specific items, the SPELLS! How much of this was Gygax vs. Arneson? The classes?

I now know braunstein etc. set the stage but how many of the known actors that play on it were Arneson’s?

Fascinated to hear what folks think.

As a last comment I admit to my bias—-even if Gygax was not the inventor of roleplaying I am assuming much of the flavor in the game was his (including memorable characters and monsters)…Vecna and the lot…

 

[Alzrius]

I haven't read Kuntz's book. I thought about spending the $15 plus whatever time to do so, but then read this review, which seems pretty fair and objective, and thought better of it:

Advanced Designers & Dragons #49: A Look at Dave Arneson's True Genius - RPGnet

All I can say is that, from everything I've been able to glean over my 40+ years in the hobby, and reading most of the key books on the subject, is that Arneson was definitely instrumental at the ideas phase, Gygax at the ideas and implementation phase (i.e. he did far, far more of the actual labour) and both of them borrowed from a variety of people that were not always acknowledged.

To be frank, Appelcline's review is (to my mind) one of the least helpful takes out there when it comes to understanding Dave Arneson's True Genius, simply because it only offers modest information about what's there in favor of critiquing the book for how much it goes against Appelcline's beliefs with regards to the development of the hobby. Hence his use of terms such as "Arnesonian revisionism" and "Chainmail denialism." He sees the entire thing as -isms that refute his version of history.

A more helpful review, I think, is this one by our own @Gronan of Simmerya:

Review – “Dave Arneson’s True Genius” by Robert J. Kuntz

Rob Kuntz’ brief monograph, Dave Arneson’s True Genius, is: The most important work written about what constitutes an RPG to date Quite likely the most important work about what constitutes an RPG …

wmusswtwbf.wordpress.com

 

[overgeeked]

To be frank, Appelcline's review is (to my mind) one of the least helpful takes out there when it comes to understanding Dave Arneson's True Genius, simply because it only offers modest information about what's there in favor of critiquing the book for how much it goes against Appelcline's beliefs with regards to the development of the hobby. Hence his use of terms such as "Arnesonian revisionism" and "Chainmail denialism." He sees the entire thing as -isms that refute his version of history.

A more helpful review, I think, is this one by our own @Gronan of Simmerya:

Review – “Dave Arneson’s True Genius” by Robert J. Kuntz

Rob Kuntz’ brief monograph, Dave Arneson’s True Genius, is: The most important work written about what constitutes an RPG to date Quite likely the most important work about what constitutes an RPG …

wmusswtwbf.wordpress.com

That's a great article. Thanks for posting. I realized about half-way through I'd read it before. After reading it again it makes perfect sense that the author is the same person who kicked off the Free Kriegsspiel Renaissance.