December Rules Update Available

[kerbarian]

They fixed shifting! No more stupid polearm gamble / threatening reach tricks!

Polearm Gamble works better than ever if you add Antipathy Gloves...

 

[BobTheNob]

Overall, a good errata. If errata is going to continue in small monthly intervals I'm all for it. I'm also happy to see that they have made additional changes to things they have already changed. That means they are never above recognizing there is more work to do, I'm a big fan of that.

Absolutely. What I also like is that a number of the key points that have caused forum flame wars (and abusive builds) are addressed. Rain of Blows, BattleRage Vigor, Marked Scourge, Avenger Armor yada yada. All these things that have filled the threads have over time been addressed and clarified.

This makes me happy because it means that they are actually paying attention to community feedback and taking action. They are taking responsbility for their product and this is a very good thing.

I really hope they can keep this up. 2 errata in 2 months is good, and I hope its a pattern that continues

 

[renau1g]

Yeah, careful attack is still worse than twin strike. Which frankly might be more of a problem with Twin Strike than Careful Attack... But it's no longer a vile trap where when someone uses it at a table cause a guy is hard to hit I'll look at two of the other people at the table, exchange the glance of 'WTF is he doing' and quietly sigh. I'll know he doesn't know better, but it won't be a _horrible_ trap, just a mild one.

Yeah, Twin Strike is just too good. Maybe they need to "errata" that

I know in a LFR game one PC kept spamming Careful attack with his bow ranger, and the rest of us were like WTF? Where's your twin strike. He was like, Pfft, everyone has twin strike, I'd rather hit more often :facepalm:

 

[Mengu]

Just realized, True Arrow Style gives the new Careful Attack a very substantial boost.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Yeah, Twin Strike is just too good. Maybe they need to "errata" that

I know in a LFR game one PC kept spamming Careful attack with his bow ranger, and the rest of us were like WTF? Where's your twin strike. He was like, Pfft, everyone has twin strike, I'd rather hit more often :facepalm:

Well, in the previous edition, you had a -2 penalty to hit when using TWF.

So how would Twin Strike look if it read:
Attack: Str -1 vs AC, two attacks
Damage: 1[W], each attack

???

 

[keterys]

Plugging that into the spreadsheet, it widens things slightly for Careful, but only slightly. Like at +2 static, 5 Dex, d10 W, d8 quarry, Careful is better for 15-21.

If I make it -2, that turns to 14+ - which is kinda interesting, that Twin Strike is no longer best when you need a 22+, but not really consequential

 

[Elric]

Here's the full spreadsheet on Twin Strike vs. Basic Atk vs. Careful Atk.

Small mistake: the spreadsheet is double-counting the maxed damage on Hunter's Quarry from two criticals with Twin Strike. If you get two critical hits, you only max Hunter's Quarry once.

Adding the feat True Arrow Style (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...-re-examining-sure-strike-careful-attack.html), Careful Strike becomes superior to Twin Strike for the majority of ACs under the default settings. This involves spending a feat on Careful Strike and using the ability grants Combat Advantage, but it could still be a strong option.

Edit: If I assume that the opportunity cost of True Arrow Style is a feat that gives +1 to damage on each attack of Twin Strike, True Arrow Style + Careful Strike still comes out ahead against Twin Strike when you need a 9+ to hit AC (with Twin Strike).

Of course, Weapon Focus applies to your other powers as well; doing a full comparison over an encounter basis would be much more involved. Lethal Hunter applies to other powers as well, but isn't as good as Weapon Focus when applied to multiattack powers, including Twin Strike (since you're only going to get the bonus damage once, and the effect on criticals is too minor to balance this out over most of the AC range).

 

[hvg3akaek]

I find it funny that once again, their eratta needs eratta. The visual examples of their 'changes' for the changeling go directly against what they said they were doing

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

An at will can't beat twin strike in accuracy or damage without becoming overpowered in itself.

When I ran the numbers for the revised careful attack with true arrow style, it beats twin strike in DPR across most of the spectrum of realistic hit percentages. (By the end of heroic, twin strike beats careful attack+true arrow style when you hit 70% of the time, but not less and I need to add +8 more in static bonuses (beyond my assumed +2 weapon, bracers of archery, lethal hunter, and weapon focus) in order for twin strike to beat careful attack+true arrow style at a 50% hit rate).

Does that mean that true arrow style is overpowered?

 

[Elric]

When I ran the numbers for the revised careful attack with true arrow style, it beats twin strike in DPR across most of the spectrum of realistic hit percentages. (By the end of heroic, twin strike beats careful attack+true arrow style when you hit 70% of the time, but not less ...

Does that mean that true arrow style is overpowered?

I get the same thing, assuming +6 Dex mod and a Greatbow. A starting 20 Dex Greatbow user should hit more than 50% of the time against an equal level monster. E.g., level 10 skirmisher has 24 AC, the character in question would have +5 levels, +6 Dex, +2 Proficiency, +2 Enhancement, +1 Expertise= +16 to hit (65% chance to hit). Distant Advantage could make this even easier.

However, if you're fighting soldiers, higher level monsters, or monsters that inflict attack penalties, 50% isn't unreasonable.

Using True Arrow Style requires a feat and granting CA a reasonable percentage of the time. So even if you typically end up with higher average damage than Twin Strike, it seem reasonable.