Defeat The Vile 5' Step

[apesamongus]

Oops, there's a wall behind me. Or maybe we're in difficult terrain and I can't make the 5 ft step. I'm infinitely more vulnerable to sundering, or Warp Wood. Those dungeon corridors become a real PITA for the reach monkey too. Corners can really ruin a reachers day. And I have an inferior critical and damage dice. Heavier weapon too.

It can also be a real hassle to maintain flanking with your rogue buddy (5' steps won't always do it if you havea reach weapon).

 

[Nail]

how about greatsword melee fighter VS reach-weapon melee fighter

Switching arguements again, eh? No problem. Bring it.

reach-weapon advantages: you threaten squares further away...(snip)..

reach-weapon disadvantages: you dont threaten squares right next to you ....(snip)..

but, with the 5ft step, you remove the disadvantage, because the other fighter is never "inside your reach" when you go to make your attack. You retain the advantage of guaranteed first attack.

Only on round one. After that there is no advantage for the reach weapon fighter. And given the requirement that he must make a 5-foot step back each round, he's almost certainly at a disadvantage.

Remember, the Greatsword Ftr must be next to the Reach Ftr to attack. So he get there, either by charging, move-action, tumbling, teleporting....whatever. For many of those ways, the Reach Ftr gets an AoO. Fair enough; that's the advantage of a Reach weapon.

When the Reach Ftr's turn comes up, he can 5-foot step away and full attack......and then the Greatsword Ftr can 5-foot step and full attack. From this round on, the Reach Ftr will gain no more AoOs. It's all 5-foot steps; and again, those aren't always possible.

In a typical combat, the Greatsword Ftr will out-damage a Reach Ftr on a full-attack basis. (At this stage the Reach Ftr wishes he could Teleport or Fly!) The Reach Ftr needs some way to keep not 5 feet, but 10 feet between him and his opponent, to compensate for his opponent's ability to 5-foot step. In most cases, that ain't gonna happen.

Next!

 

[Nail]

Oops, there's a wall behind me. Or maybe we're in difficult terrain and I can't make the 5 ft step. I'm infinitely more vulnerable to sundering, or Warp Wood. Those dungeon corridors become a real PITA for the reach monkey too. Corners can really ruin a reachers day. And I have an inferior critical and damage dice. Heavier weapon too.

Exactly.

Really, the only reach weapon worth having is the spiked chain. .....and everyone knows that.....

 

[Nail]

The next campaign's DM is going to try cutting the combat round into phases ...

Wow. Good luck on that. Sounds like your game's combat is gonna slow down to a crawl......

 

[Felnar]

Only on round one. After that there is no advantage for the reach weapon fighter. And given the requirement that he must make a 5-foot step back each round, he's almost certainly at a disadvantage.

here, he's only at a disadvantage when he tries to use a reach weapon in an environment that doesnt support it (indoors, etc.).

if it's such an environment, he could easily drop the polearm and quickdraw his own greatsword. (althought, the thought of weilding a 5ft long blade in a 5ft wide corridor brings its own issues, but we ignore those for simplicities sake)

help me predict any problems with this rule change:
the 5ft step becoming an immediate action instead of a...
well... i cant find action-type of the 5ft step.
the table on PBH pg 141 says its a "no action"

but anyway,
what would be the result of the 5ft step becoming an immediate action?

- Felnar

 

[apesamongus]

here, he's only at a disadvantage when he tries to use a reach weapon in an environment that doesnt support it (indoors, etc.).

Yes, some weapons are betting in some situation and some are better in others. Most people consider that to be a feature, not a flaw.

 

[Nail]

if it's such an environment, he could easily drop the polearm and quickdraw his own greatsword.

Which is fine....an means he's spent feats on that polearm so as to only use it during the first round of combat. Doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me.....especially considering that he's facing a dedicated Greatsword Ftr.

what would be the result of the 5ft step becoming an immediate action?

That is an excellent question.

Hmmmmmm.........

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

but anyway,
what would be the result of the 5ft step becoming an immediate action?

Well, an immediate action counts as your swift action for the round if you use it during your own turn or your swift action for your next turn if you use it during somone else's.

Accordingly, you couldn't cast quickened spells or any spells with a casting time of one swift action, couldn't make use of any feats that state "As a [swift / immediate] action, you may ...", and anything with similar language.

It would also increase book-keeping.

Therefore, I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Nail]

Are immediate actions that much of a pain? We haven't really used 'em in the games I run.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Are immediate actions that much of a pain? We haven't really used 'em in the games I run.

Generally, handling them doesn't cause all that much pain.

But then, they don't really come up all that often, so any pain they would cause is, by definition, minimal.

5' steps come up *very* often IME.