Defeat The Vile 5' Step

[Felnar]

it would add a slight complexity because someones turn could be interupted (their action still cant be interupted). It would add minimal to none bookkeeping (compared to the 5ft step as is). it would highly encourage paying attention when it isnt "your turn".

issue i see:
the rules on charging would need to be adjusted to allow the charger to make a slight directional adjustment once per charge.

besides quickened spells, what other abilities are immmediate actions?
this could bring immediate actions to the non-caster classes

- Felnar

 

[werk]

5' steps come up *very* often IME.

Maybe Felnar's plan is to make the 5' step a logistical nightmare, so it will not be used for fear of house-rule-domino-effect.

I think AoO are a key change in 3e, and the thing that prevents them from being completely overshadowing and the basis of every combat strategy is the 5' step. Even with the 5' step, consider how much meta-game thought is involved in combat because of the AoO.

I think removing or modifying the 5' so that it is 'weakened' is a bad move unless you want to have a ton more AoO, which isn't really combat the way I think of fantasy combat. Fantasy combat to me is charges and whirlwinds, grapples and flurries, stuff like that, full round attacks. I also think that more AoO shifts the power greatly in favor of numerous opponents.

<ripple>

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

It would add minimal to none bookkeeping (compared to the 5ft step as is).

I disagree.

Things are complicated enough as they are without worrying about whether or not I can take a 5' step during your turn - and after mine - if I've moved during my turn, or cast a quickened True Strike, etc.

Compare this to:

Have you moved your character yet this turn? No. Then feel free to move your character 5' in any direction. You cannot move until your next turn.

it would highly encourage paying attention when it isnt "your turn".

Possibly - I'm not sure it would provide much more incentive to paying attention than the current AoO rules require.

the rules on charging would need to be adjusted to allow the charger to make a slight directional adjustment once per charge.

Why?

besides quickened spells, what other abilities are immmediate actions?

Quickened spells are swift actions, not immediate actions (i.e., can only be done on your own turn).

Feather fall is an immediate action.

Numerous spells and abilties - especially in, say, Complete Adventurer - are Swift actions.

 

[Nail]

5' steps come up *very* often IME.

Me too.

I see what you're saying: if a 5-foot step becomes an immediate action, immediate actions will become common place. ...and that could be a book-keeping problem.

I wonder how it would come out in play.......I imagine such a rule would give the side with the most numbers the advantage.

 

[Nail]

This is the peice that would add complication:

.... can <I> take a 5' step during your turn - and after mine - if I've moved during my turn....

Everyone would have to rememebr if they've moved or not. And the DM would have x2 to x 12 the chore.....

 

[Felnar]

Compare this to:

Have you moved your character yet this turn? No. Then feel free to move your character 5' in any direction. You cannot move until your next turn..

dont immediate actions count as your next turns swift action? So, it wouldnt matter what you've done in the past, because swift/immediate actions effect the future. The 5ft step as an immediate action (used not in your turn) would preclude you from moving until after your next turn.(your next turns actions cannot disallow a 5ft step).

Possibly - I'm not sure it would provide much more incentive to paying attention than the current AoO rules require..

I dont see how the current AoO rules require attention. On your turn you look at the miniatures, then act. Your actions (not your opponents actions) cause AoOs, so you know if you are going to cause AoOs. Well, it could be useful to know if something no longer threatens squares (grappled/disarmed/etc). Other than those cases, miniatures combat is very much like chess.

Why?.

my mistake, i was envisioning being able to side-step a charge (take cover or something) during the time it takes to charge 30+ ft. But charging(the move and attack) is a single action isnt it, and immediate actions can't interrupt someone else's action.
Either way, it'd still be nice if you could arc slighty during a charge. Perhaps at the cost of 5 or 10 feet of movement?
---

i guess it really needs to be a second type of immediate action so someone could 5ft step and featherfall or quickened-spell in the same round.

- Felnar

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

dont immediate actions count as your next turns swift action? So, it wouldnt matter what you've done in the past, because swift/immediate actions effect the future. The 5ft step as an immediate action (used not in your turn) would preclude you from moving until after your next turn.(your next turns actions cannot disallow a 5ft step).

So, if I 5' step during your turn, I can't move at all during my next turn. Let's say you go immediately after I do, and there are 14 other combatants between you and me. I take a 5' step during your turn, and now I need to remember that I did so until my next turn comes up, at which point I can't move and can't cast a quickened spell? Or a spell with 1 swift action casting time? Or any other swift action?

Alternatively, I can charge you, move my 2x my speed, and then, at any point after "the end" of my turn, take a 5' step.

I can't take a 5' step *during* my turn, because I moved, but I *can* take a 5' step as soon as your turn comes up - immediately following my own. That doesn't sound odd to you?

Also, if you're ditching the "is not an action" aspect of the 5' step (whereby it covers general shifting about while in combat), why are you retaining the "can't otherwise move" prereq?

I dont see how the current AoO rules require attention. On your turn you look at the miniatures, then act. Your actions (not your opponents actions) cause AoOs,

I think you missed my point. My actions draw AoOs against me. The opponents actions draw AoOs against them. I can maneuver such that I force my opponents to provoke in order to perform their own maneuvers.

Accordingly, the AoO rules encourage me to pay attention already. I'm not sure the 5' as immediate action rule would cause me to pay more attention.

i guess it really needs to be a second type of immediate action so someone could 5ft step and featherfall or quickened-spell in the same round.

Which, to me, means that it is a far more complicated rule than should be realistically considered.

 

[Taloras]

seeing as my connection is too bad to see all the replies, im just gonna give my suggestion.

A fighter with Improved Trip and Knockdown is really nasty so long as he does a minimum of 10 points of damage every turn. Whirlwind Attack added in makes it even more nasty.

Knockdown lets you get a free trip attempt with every attack that does 10 points or more of damage. most mages/archers dont have a high strength bonus, where most fighters do. 5 ft step to archer, full attack, every one is a trip attempt. Ranged/spells are a lot harder when prone.

I used this really nastily with a halberd fighter with improved trip, knockdown, whirlwind attack, and a prestige class(long blade I think it was called) that let me use halberd as reach and normal at same time, along with a double whirlwind attack(dont ask me where the DM found that one....some kinda special ability). Damage 1d10+16. Every hit was a trip attempt. Mages wouldnt go near me. Neither would archers.

 

[frankthedm]

Remember, the Greatsword Ftr must be next to the Reach Ftr to attack. So he get there, either by charging, move-action, tumbling, teleporting....whatever. For many of those ways, the Reach Ftr gets an AoO. Fair enough; that's the advantage of a Reach weapon.

When the Reach Ftr's turn comes up, he can 5-foot step away and full attack......and then the Greatsword Ftr can 5-foot step and full attack. From this round on, the Reach Ftr will gain no more AoOs. It's all 5-foot steps; and again, those aren't always possible.

In a typical combat, the Greatsword Ftr will out-damage a Reach Ftr on a full-attack basis. (At this stage the Reach Ftr wishes he could Teleport or Fly!) The Reach Ftr needs some way to keep not 5 feet, but 10 feet between him and his opponent, to compensate for his opponent's ability to 5-foot step. In most cases, that ain't gonna happen.

Reach weapon fighters should ready as often as possible Vs. Attacks . Simply ready an attack for when someone tries to attack you. If the person who triggered your ready is adjacent, taking your 5' step away with your ready negates thier attack [ unless you were deep inside thier reach to begin with] most times [your 5' step takes you outside thier reach] and then you will go again before they do from then on out. Ready an attack for when they tries to attack after that. If the fool rinses and repeats, have fun.

 

[Nail]

Nice!

But i'm not sure the Greatsword Ftr couldn't keep moving. After all, you've interupted his action.