Defeat The Vile 5' Step

[ThirdWizard]

Five range increments for thrown weapons is going to be around 100 feet away (depending on the weapon), which would take a Barbarian with a second movement increase (say Boots of Striding and Springing) to charge to. If they're only 30 feet away, then you could move over and attack, no need to charge. Or your wizard could cast Hold Person, or a monk could run over and grapple, or something.

The fighter's job is going to be to hold those guys he's in melee with back so that the others are protected and so that they can deal with situations like this. A fighter who leaves and starts handling the incoming guy isn't going to be doing his job as well. If he backs up 5' out of threat range, then likewise, the enemy is going to be able to move around him to the people he was protecting.

 

[Felnar]

Five range increments for thrown weapons is going to be around 100 feet away (depending on the weapon), which would take a Barbarian with a second movement increase (say Boots of Striding and Springing) to charge to. If they're only 30 feet away, then you could move over and attack, no need to charge. Or your wizard could cast Hold Person, or a monk could run over and grapple, or something.

okay, so if you design your warrior to have 50+ speed, distance to opponent only matters for single attack vs full attack[with range penalties], but then you're breaking your rule from the second half of your post.
And, it works because i stated the assumption that you have a straight, obstacle free, line to charge in.
there is no option to just letting the rest of your party handle it. If there was, then it wouldnt meet the "need" requirement. Example, the opponent at range could easily have actions before your party mage/monk does. Or perhaps they need to be softened up a bit so your party archer/mage can finish them with artillery.

The fighter's job is going to be to hold those guys he's in melee with back so that the others are protected and so that they can deal with situations like this. A fighter who leaves and starts handling the incoming guy isn't going to be doing his job as well. If he backs up 5' out of threat range, then likewise, the enemy is going to be able to move around him to the people he was protecting.

this sounds like it supports my arguement... the warrior can use the 5ft step to safely be both meatshield and artillery.

- Felnar

 

[ThirdWizard]

okay, so if you design your warrior to have 50+ speed, distance to opponent only matters for single attack vs full attack[with range penalties], but then you're breaking your rule from the second half of your post.

I was just pointing out that five range increments is a lot more than 30 feet. I would suggest that you read up on your ranged combat rules a bit.

this sounds like it supports my arguement... the warrior can use the 5ft step to safely be both meatshield and artillery.

If you take a 5' step back then you no longer threaten them, so now they are free to move in to attack your arcane casters/archers/etc.

And I'm not saying it isn't a good idea to use thrown weapons. Options are always good. Every melee character should carry a bow and arrows. It's just too much of a liability not to do so. I just don't see how your fighter with Quick draw is overpowered.

 

[Felnar]

ackk, read your post wrong, temporary dyslexia...
will attempt to correct.
So no one gets the wrong idea, ThirdWizard didnt actually support my argument.

i said "within" 5 range increments, not "at" 5 range increments, and i only said 30 ft for the benefit of those that thought charging the ranged opponent was better (giving them better options)

sure, the melee opponents could possibly manuver and attack your arcane casters/archers/etc. without taking an AoO from your warrior (depending on where the casters/archers happen to be standing), but again, if you dont kill/disable the ranged opponent this turn he's going to kill you/your party/mission objectives, so the melee opponents actions are inconsequential.

its not ranged attacks that are overpowered, (i only got into that after people claimed the extra versatility was okay because ranged weapons did less damage than their 2handed PAing charger)
what's overpowered is the "i know you all are hacking at me with swords, but just stand there while i ignore you, step back, and do whatever i feel like" 5ft step that is overpowered

i'm arguing (in what seems to be a more and more round-about way) that the rules proposed on page one are better than the rules people are using. They add negligable complexity to the game, and are more realistic/logical.
I'm in favor of "whenever someone you are meleeing takes a free 5ft step away from you, you have the option of following with a 5ft step"
that way people actually have to "withdraw" or take an AoO to escape from your melee wrath

- Felnar

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I'm in favor of "whenever someone you are meleeing takes a free 5ft step away from you, you have the option of following with a 5ft step"
that way people actually have to "withdraw" or take an AoO to escape from your melee wrath

This is already true. You cannot take a 5' step unless you take no other movement in the round. So if your foe takes a 5' step away, he's stuck there until his next turn, before which you'll get your turn and are fully capable of 5' stepping up to smack him again. You don't even lose your full attack option.

The only thing the 5' step allows is for your foe to escape your AoO fury. And even that isn't certain. If your foe is facing you and 2 of your companions, then the smart thing to do is surround or at least flank him. At that point there's no 5' square in range he can step to that doesn't garner him at least one AoO.

I think the RAW are very tactical as-is. Your party needs to consider how to counter the back-stepping enemy, either by bull-rushing into a corner, double moving into a flanking position, using an immobilizer such as Hold Person or even the humble Tanglefoot Bag, etc. etc.

The 5' step doesn't hurt tactical gameplay, it adds to it, IMO.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Bingo!

All right! You just completed a line on my "D&D messageboard Bingo" card. I never thought I'd win with "the 5 foot step is broken". Wow. It was pretty easy to pick up "Paladin Ethics 101" and "monks using natural weapons". I managed to spot an "Oberoni fallacy" a while back, and with the free square I just completed the line. But really, "5 foot step is broken." I never thought I'd stamp that one, ever.

 

[Nail]

....what's overpowered is the "i know you all are hacking at me with swords, but just stand there while i ignore you, step back, and do whatever i feel like" 5ft step that is overpowered....

Okay, got it.

Now, get this: Not only is this tactic (5-foot step and ranged attack) not particularly advantageous (we've proven this to you time and again in this thread; no need to re-hash, right?), but it's cinematically "realistic". Have you not seen a movie or two where the Good Guy(tm) takes the extra punishment from nearby mooks in order to help an ally at range, attack a Bad Guy(tm) at range, etc? It happens, and it's cool!

The "extra punishment" is not from AoOs; it's from full-round attacks that are not responded to by the Good Guy(tm) while he goes about his heroic schtick at range.

...I'm in favor of "whenever someone you are meleeing takes a free 5ft step away from you, you have the option of following with a 5ft step"...

Unless you've already moved for the round, right? And you get a free action even if you've already used as many free actions as you can....and you are not allowed to take the Ready action.....and you can only do that if you have a AoO left.....or something.

Sounds like a Rules Disaster! Release the hounds!

 

[Quasqueton]

Dr. Awkward, "D&D message board" bingo would make for a wonderful thread in General.

Quasqueton

 

[Felnar]

Okay, got it.

Now, get this: Not only is this tactic (5-foot step and ranged attack) not particularly advantageous (we've proven this to you time and again in this thread; no need to re-hash, right?), but it's cinematically "realistic". Have you not seen a movie or two where the Good Guy(tm) takes the extra punishment from nearby mooks in order to help an ally at range, attack a Bad Guy(tm) at range, etc? It happens, and it's cool!

The "extra punishment" is not from AoOs; it's from full-round attacks that are not responded to by the Good Guy(tm) while he goes about his heroic schtick at range.

if its not advantagous, all those mages/archers/etc must be idiots for using it.

AoO's represent extra openings due to your opponent doing something other than defending themselves.
the Good Guy(tm) attacking the Bad Guy(tm) at range is no longer defending against the nearby mooks, so i feel AoO's are deserved. This is where the "extra punishment" comes from. The mooks will be using full-round attacks no matter which action the Good Guy(tm) takes, how can the same action result in "extra punishment"?

Unless you've already moved for the round, right? And you get a free action even if you've already used as many free actions as you can....and you are not allowed to take the Ready action.....and you can only do that if you have a AoO left.....or something.

Sounds like a Rules Disaster! Release the hounds!

free actions are limited by how many the DM will let you take, and of which types.

- Felnar

 

[Nail]

if its not advantagous, all those mages/archers/etc must be idiots for using it.

You are confounding your arguements again.

The mooks will be using full-round attacks no matter which action the Good Guy(tm) takes, how can the same action result in "extra punishment"?

Instead of knocking the mooks out that round, the Good Guy has to wait until next round. If he had not been destracted, the mooks would be painting the ground red, rather than beating on him. As the Good Guy(tm) waits (that is, uses his action to 5-foot step and fire at another), he has to absorb the mook's attacks.

Simple enough.