Defeat The Vile 5' Step

[ThirdWizard]

I would like to add that I do use a house rule that no one creature can use more than two free actions per round. Though I don't consider it a house rule do to the free action text. I consider it a DM-set variable.

You might want to reconsider that:

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading.

 

[werk]

You might want to reconsider that:

I did consider that. Feats and spells can allow more free actions, but two is all you get standard. (haste or rapidshot for instance)

Compare swinging a sword twice to firing a bow twice. Grabbing and making ammo ready to fire take up a great deal of time.

How dare you suggest that I would casually make a house rule without consideration!!! j/k

 

[Magesmiley]

I'm going to try to address the original question... which as I see it is: how do you deal with spellcasters/ranged attackers who 5' step away from melee and unload. The two best solutions I've seen from my games are:

1. The spiked chain. This one is really hard to beat, especially when combined with Improved Trip. A 1st level human fighter can manage Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. You threaten targets 5' and 10' away. If you run up next to the target and attack him he has a lot of trouble getting away. If he adjusts and doesn't something which provokes, trip the punk. If you succeed, follow it up with your free attack (from Improved Trip). Prone targets have a fairly tough time getting away from you. If he tries to move away trip him when he tries to leave the square, same result as before. If he withdraws, try to trip him when he leaves the 2nd square. If you fail, just move up next to him again and repeat. For added fun, have your wizard/sorcerer cast enlarge person on you for a 20' reach - just watch them try to get away without an aoo.

2. A rogue or monk and flanking. Rogues and monks with decent ranks in tumble can often get into flanking positions. Take advantage of this. If you've got an attacker on both sides, your target can't 5' adjust and be obnoxious without provoking from someone.

 

[Felnar]

And if we were playing a gritty, "realistic" combat game, I'd agree with you.

We're not, BTW.

We're in a game where...

• a ranger archer could pick up the spell Arrow Mind from CV and not provoke AoOs within a threatened area (and not even bother with a 5-foot step).
• you can draw a weapon, drop it, then draw another without provoking AoOs (Quickdraw!).
• a crossbowman to fire twice in 6 seconds as an inexperienced newbie (Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, PBS, human Ftr 1).
• an archer can fire 2 arrows with one shot (Manyshot).
• a monster's bite attack has the same reach (thus threatening AoOs) as their claw attack.
• Etc.

....and you have a problem with "Legolas" firing in melee? WTF?!?

the only reason the game isnt "realistic" or "logical" at times is for the sake of simplicity.
if there's a way to have both realism AND simplicity, IMO it should be used.
on page one of this thread, a couple ways of achieving this were suggested.
someone tell me why realism and simplicity makes for bad rules...

- Felnar

 

[dagger]

And then they step in 5' and smack him exactly as if he had not moved. He's lost the actual benefit of ranged combat - attacking without getting hit at all. Please explain how he hasn't lost that.

And if the guys who just moved 5' and smacked him are standing between him and the target he is throwing at, the target also gets cover...

 

[Felnar]

someone please respond to post #105 (it's on page 3)

- Felnar

 

[werk]

you are fighting three people in melee,
then suddenly have a need to do damage to someone within 5 range increments
you can:
A. charge over (taking 3 AoO's from moving at -2 AC from charging) and do a single attack
B. step back and use Quick Draw to do full iterative attack thrown attack (for less damage per hit, and probably a lower to hit %)

assuming the target is within charge range, and you even have a straight line to run in, which option does more damage?
(without these assumptions at least half the battlefield in off limits to charging)

So you are fighting, in melee, 3 opponents and want to attack another, fourth opponent, say, 100' away?

A. Put the newcomer outside charge range. moot strategy. Or doable if you survive the AoO, not a good strategy.
B. Doable, but you'll get pwn'd next bad guy turn, not a good strategy.

I'd probably continue to finish the 3 opponents if I think that is possible, then confront the newcomer, if not, make a withdrawl either out of the newcomer's range or into position next to the newcomer.

 

[ThirdWizard]

This is why PCs travel in packs.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Post #105

well, i thought you understood...you knew i wasnt taking about a thrown weapon specialist who throws weapons every round, and i am still looking for the trade-off (all of which have been negligible, so far)

Trade offs:
How any weapons do you cary and how much do you spend getting magic applied to them?

if you are fighting three people in melee,
then suddenly have a need to do damage to someone within 5 range increments
you can:
A. charge over (taking 3 AoO's from moving at -2 AC from charging) and do a single attack
B. step back and use Quick Draw to do full iterative attack thrown attack (for less damage per hit, and probably a lower to hit %)

A: you say 5 range increments.. too far away to charge this round. Assume within charging distance.. it depends, why do you *have to* do damage to them? It might be worth the 3 potential hits from AoOs.
B:.. step back, drop greatsword, quickdraw full thrown weapon arsenal, quickdraw second Greatsword?
Again: How any weapons do you cary and how much do you spend getting magic applied to them?

C: Deal with the ones in front of you first, and let your team-mates.. you know.. the rest of the party, handle the other guy.

JMHO

I think this thread has wandered quite a away from the original post, who has a GM apparently confused on the definition of 5' step. :\

 

[Felnar]

just to clarify and highlight
"then suddenly have a need to do damage to someone within 5 range increments" (from post #105)

the key there is the word "need" (ie. a pressing need, like right now)
if you could just ignore the opponent at range, and continue meleeing the others, then you dont have a "need" to do damage to the opponent at range

example of a "need":
the opponent at range will kill you/your party/hostages on their next action so you "need" to kill/disable them this turn

A: you say 5 range increments.. too far away to charge this round. Assume within charging distance.. it depends, why do you *have to* do damage to them? It might be worth the 3 potential hits from AoOs.
B:.. step back, drop greatsword, quickdraw full thrown weapon arsenal, quickdraw second Greatsword?
Again: How any weapons do you cary and how much do you spend getting magic applied to them?

C: Deal with the ones in front of you first, and let your team-mates.. you know.. the rest of the party, handle the other guy.

A: i said "within" 5 range increments, think of them as 30 feet away if you want
B: i dont think you need to drop your greatsword, you can hold it in one hand and throw with the other. even non-magic javelins can deal damage.
C: see my "need" description above. And consider the possibility that the rest of your party Failed to handle the opponent at range.

- Felnar