Defeat The Vile 5' Step

[Felnar]

The ranged combatant has lost the main benefit of using ranged when in melee - he can no longer strike at someone from a distance without being hit. What benefit of ranged combat do you believe he retains that he should not?

he's lost none of the benefits of ranged combat
he's 5ft'd away, so can can "strike at someone from a distance without being hit"

 

[Felnar]

Why is this a bad idea? This point is so far afield, I'm not sure what arguement there is to have.

I *think* what you're saying is: "What's the penalty for the fighter, who was engaged in melee, to 5-foot step back and throw at someone else?"

(I'll note here that this is NOT the point you started with. You're sorta a moving target yerself, ain't ya? I'm envisioning you 5-foot stepping away from the arguement melee and throwing at a hastily-constructed straw-man down range. Too bad I didn't ready an action. )

The penalty you are looking for is this: The fighter has not attacked his melee opponent for a round using his best attacks. That's lost damage, and a lost chance to cut down said opponent. Mainwhile the opponent essentially gets a "freebe" round to cut into your hit points. Combat is often about attrition, and your melee combatant just got a break.

If you think this isn't a big deal....hey, I'd love to square off against you.

my arguement is against the 5ft step denying the AoO's that should result when you preform an AoO provoking action (while IMO "in melee" combat). My arguement is against the thrower/archer/longspearmen/wizard getting to proceed unhampered when someone is full attacking them round after round.

my point is drifting? hmm, i guess i'll have to go read through the posts again. you are at a better position than me to see drift. the only drifting i can think that i've done was changing from a bow to thrown weapons (because someone pointed out that a bow user doesnt threaten any squares). Although i have been spending a lot of time trying to get people to realize that sometimes "throwing > melee".

about your last part,
yes, you are losing damage against the melee opponent, but gaining damage against the ranged opponent who you have judged to be more dangerous (a greater need to hurt/stop from acting). if the melee opponent was more dangerous you'd just greatsword him, not throw javelins.
please re-look at post #105

- Felnar

 

[Felnar]

Your problem is a conceptual turn problem, then, not a ranged combat problem. Have you tried considering that all turns happen almost simultaneously?

yes, it is a conceptual turn problem.
turn based combat "simplifies" reality(which is good), at the cost of realism/logic
but on page one of the thread there are variants to 5ft step that dont make the game noticably more complicated, so there's no reason to not use realism/logic

in turn based combat the only "simultaneous" actions are:
1. readied actions
2. AoO's
3. i cant think of any others

- Felnar

 

[ThirdWizard]

Using throwing weapons isn't broken or overpowering, though. It's a good tactic that more people should employ. Just like tripping and disarming, it is better with a feat, and it leaves your opponent at a slight disadvantage to you.

 

[orangefruitbat]

Look at Conan

Dunno about you, but I like the Conan version of the rules. The 5' step still does not provoke an AOO, but other actions still do normally. So you can't use missle weapons or spells, and step back freely.

Works really well, and my players seem to like it.

 

[werk]

I would like to point out that it is a 5' move over the course of a round.

Picture yourself fighting as hard as you are physically able and try NOT to drift around 5'. I mean, you're bobbing and weaving, shuffling and changing stances... The point is that the 5' move is easily made while doing other things, like fighting, without distracting the moving player, so doesn't offer an AoO.

I think regular move actions should get AoO and 5' should not, it just makes sense to me. 5' is like 2 half-steps.

The disadvantage of the throwing or ranged fighter is that he now relies on Dex to hit, which is a big deal...it's hard to have multiple primary stats.

 

[Nail]

My arguement is against the thrower/archer/longspearmen/wizard getting to proceed unhampered when someone is full attacking them round after round.

And if we were playing a gritty, "realistic" combat game, I'd agree with you.

We're not, BTW.

We're in a game where...

• a ranger archer could pick up the spell Arrow Mind from CV and not provoke AoOs within a threatened area (and not even bother with a 5-foot step).
  
• you can draw a weapon, drop it, then draw another without provoking AoOs (Quickdraw!).
  
• a crossbowman to fire twice in 6 seconds as an inexperienced newbie (Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, PBS, human Ftr 1).
  
• an archer can fire 2 arrows with one shot (Manyshot).
  
• a monster's bite attack has the same reach (thus threatening AoOs) as their claw attack.
  
• Etc.

....and you have a problem with "Legolas" firing in melee? WTF?!?

 

[Nail]

Stepping away from the "this isn't realistic!" discussion:

Using throwing weapons isn't broken or overpowering, though.

This is the basic point. Thanks, ThirdWizard.

 

[apesamongus]

he's lost none of the benefits of ranged combat
he's 5ft'd away, so can can "strike at someone from a distance without being hit"

And then they step in 5' and smack him exactly as if he had not moved. He's lost the actual benefit of ranged combat - attacking without getting hit at all. Please explain how he hasn't lost that.

 

[werk]

Although i have been spending a lot of time trying to get people to realize that sometimes "throwing > melee".

I think that's the part we are having trouble with...

Melee fighters with ranged option, absolutely, especially if we are only talking about only adding one utility feat like quick-draw. But stacked for throwing alone is never better than stacking for melee (IMO).
melee > throwing
melee + throwing > throwing alone

I would like to add that I do use a house rule that no one creature can use more than two free actions per round. Though I don't consider it a house rule do to the free action text. I consider it a DM-set variable.