Defining "Your Opponent" in a spell

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

And of course many would conclude that the Celestial Bear would speak Celestial, not Common.

They'd have no rules support for such an argument, however.

Does a Fiendish bear understand Fiendish?

*EDITed to conform to Hypersmurf Standards.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And of course many would conclude that the Celestial Bear would speak Celestial, not Common.

"A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise)."

The Celestial template doesn't 'note otherwise', so they understand Common. They don't speak at all

-Hyp.

 

[rushlight]

Well, to clarify, some combat had taken place. It just wasn't occuring at the time when the durid cast the spell. By that point, everyone had fallen in the pit, except one person hanging on to the edge.

Also, this wasn't a celestial creature, as it was summoned using Summon Nature's Ally. So it couldn't understand common.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Well, to clarify, some combat had taken place. It just wasn't occuring at the time when the durid cast the spell. By that point, everyone had fallen in the pit, except one person hanging on to the edge.

Also, this wasn't a celestial creature, as it was summoned using Summon Nature's Ally. So it couldn't understand common.

My interpretation, and a good one to work with which basically solves every possible problem here:

If the druid can describe who his enemies are, then the spell will treat people who match that as his enemies.

Specifically
"any creature not a party member" in this case.

Other possibilities:
"that guy right there"
"anyone carrying a weapon"
"people wearing red armbands"
"everybody!"
"that backstabbing bard"

Furthermore, the designation of "enemy" and "ally" can be changed at any time as a free action. Note that means that if you start a fight, cast bless, and then one of your party members attacks you, he will continue getting the bonuses from bless until your next turn.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Also, this wasn't a celestial creature, as it was summoned using Summon Nature's Ally. So it couldn't understand common.

Yup, hence 'but not a normal animal' at the end of that post

Furthermore, the designation of "enemy" and "ally" can be changed at any time as a free action. Note that means that if you start a fight, cast bless, and then one of your party members attacks you, he will continue getting the bonuses from bless until your next turn.

Ah, you use Continuous Target Validation for targeted spells?

How do you handle Shillelagh?

-Hyp.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Ah, you use Continuous Target Validation for targeted spells?

No, I decided that target validations need to be judged on a case-by-case basis

That's why my post starts "my interpretation" rather than "what the rules say".

How do you handle Shillelagh?

-Hyp.

By applying my understanding of the intent of the spell. Same goes for targeting spells on "a vial of water" - does the spell stick with the vial or the water? which bit of the vial? etc.

Shrink item? Can you shrink a chest and it's contents? Can you remove the contents once the chest is shrunk? Do they stay shrunk? Does shrunken alchemists fire, once thrown at an enemy (arguably not "onto a solid surface") ignite? Does it cause full damage?

Simply put - targeting is a subject covered fairly ephemerally by the rules. Regardless of the outcomes you desire or deem sensible, some ruling needs to be made. I told you the one that I have made for this particular spell.

 

[Diirk]

Bless has a duration; hence once someone has been blessed they stay blessed until it wears off. It doesn't matter that they aren't an ally anymore, it only matters that they were an ally when you cast it.

Now if it was dismissable, you could get rid of it (as a standard action, not a free action) but that would end the spell for everyone; you can't merely dismiss part of a spell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, I decided that target validations need to be judged on a case-by-case basis

Fair enough.

So how do you handle Bless when:

1. You designate someone your ally, cast Bless, designate them enemy, and then designate them ally again. Does the bonus return?
2. You cast Bless, unaware that your friend is ten feet away and invisible. Two rounds later, he turns visible. When does he receive the bonus? (When the spell is cast? When he becomes visible? On your action after he becomes visible? Never?)
3. You cast Bless, unaware that your friend is ten feet away and invisible. Two rounds later, he turns visible, within line of sight but eighty feet away. When does he receive the bonus?
4. You cast Bless, and two rounds later, your friend comes running up from somewhere a hundred feet off down the corridor. When does he receive the bonus?

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

The Celestial template doesn't 'note otherwise', so they understand Common. They don't speak at all

But as you know, Speak Languages skill says:

[b]
Language    Typical Speakers[/b]
Celestial   Good outsiders
Common      Humans, halflings, half-elves, half-orcs

And Celestial Bears certainly most resemble the former.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Fair enough.

So how do you handle Bless when:

1. You designate someone your ally, cast Bless, designate them enemy, and then designate them ally again. Does the bonus return?
2. You cast Bless, unaware that your friend is ten feet away and invisible. Two rounds later, he turns visible. When does he receive the bonus? (When the spell is cast? When he becomes visible? On your action after he becomes visible? Never?)
3. You cast Bless, unaware that your friend is ten feet away and invisible. Two rounds later, he turns visible, within line of sight but eighty feet away. When does he receive the bonus?
4. You cast Bless, and two rounds later, your friend comes running up from somewhere a hundred feet off down the corridor. When does he receive the bonus?

-Hyp.

All good points, and all point to me making a mistake - Looking at it, bless is probably not one of those spells where the targeting can potentially change - which is something that I more or less realised while I was making my last post... My point still stands for summon monster or any other specifically directable spell.

Number 2 - the guy definately gets blessed, whether or not you know he's there. Area spells don't require you to know of the presence of targets, and you definately know the guy is an ally.

I think a more complex example is

A former ally of the party, that the party has suspicions about, but never really decided was an enemy is, unknown to the party, invisibly present - does he get blessed? Does the answer change depending on whether he really is an ally or an enemy?

And

A party member, polymorphed into an unrecognisable form that cannot communicate is present and this is unknown to the party - is he blessed?

And that's where it really starts to get complex, because both of those are situations where the DM is basically unable to ask the party if they wish to bless the individual in question - in both cases because the party is unaware of the individual's presence and disposition. I'm pretty sure that both have to come down to DM fiat. The DM needs to make a guess as to whether the party would accept the guy as an ally upon sight, and adjudicate the spell accordingly.