Demonic Lore II

[BOZ]

Dungeon #129, page 47.

gotcha. is that the same magazine that says Ogremoch was on the Queen's side as well? does it mention any other elemental lords?

From your archomental article, it looks like Ogremoch, Imix, Cryonax, and Olhydra were on the side of Chaos, while Yan-C-Bin, Chan, Sunnis, and Ben-Hadar fought with Law. Zaaman Rul probably wasn't born yet, but there might have been a different Elemental Prince of Fiery Goodness. For that matter, back then the Elemental Prince of Watery Goodness might have been Hadar rather than Ben-Hadar. If there's a Ben-Hadar, it only makes sense that at one point there was a Hadar. I doubt Akadi, Grumbar, Kossuth, or Istishia took sides.

while it doesn't state most of that explicitly, all of that can be inferred of course. not sure about the Ben-hadar predecessor though, but i don't doubt that Zaaman Rul had a predecessor/ancestor around in the Age Before Ages (besides Imix, that is). truth is, i'm not sure about the ages of the good archomentals in relation to the evils, though clearly they existed during the war. i'd assume they came to exist during the war, or right before it.

speaking of the Law/Chaos war, i know the eladrins were around during it because of their invasion into the Abyss. do we know if they were involved in the war itself? was Queen Morwel there? were the eladrins on the side of Chaos, do you think? were any other celestials involved as far as we know?

By the way, Ty'h'kadi, Prince of Thunder and Lightning, was made up for that article, right?

that one was Shade's baby. who knows, if someone writes an article about para/quasi/whatever elementals they could make use of him...

 

[Ripzerai]

was Queen Morwel there? were the eladrins on the side of Chaos, do you think? were any other celestials involved as far as we know?

In my head, the eladrins fought with Chaos until Chaos was decisively defeated, at which point the forces of Chaos turned against one another, each side blaming the other for the loss. But that might be seen as too petty for celestials; that's where the idea that the baatezu (led by Prince Levistus) were secretly infiltrating the eladrins and guiding them toward a war with their hated enemies, the obyriths, comes in. Because of course the war was a disaster for the eladrins, as is usually the case when they fall prey to such wild hubris. They regret it bitterly, and have sworn never to be the aggressors again except where the lives or freedom of innocents are directly at stake.

I suspect that the authors of Fiendish Codex I would disagree with me on nearly all of that, of course.

But no, no celestials were involved with the war were involved as far as we know, only its aftermath.

 

[Shemeska]

were any other celestials involved as far as we know?

I'd probably lean towards some version of what Rip suggested, at least as far as the Eladrin are concerned.

Time scales are fuzzy here of course, and at least with the Archons they're a relatively young race by comparison since they exclusively spawn from mortal petitioners unlike some others. The archons probably weren't around for a good chunk of that time period, probably not till the Tanar'ri and Baatezu were created, so if they were involved it was only near the end of things (and I'd suggest this was when they might have waged war on the ancient Baatorians, given that archons are frozen along with them into the ice of Cania). The Baatezu conquest of the Ancient Baatorians might have taken place sometime before the end of the Law/Chaos war in the inner planes, and the Archons then tried to take advantage of the infighting amongst Lawful Evil. We don't know how the timescale of the Obyrith/Wind Duke war compares to the events in early Baator (perhaps FC:II will suggest some ideas to mesh the various histories).

I'd suggest that the Guardinals weren't involved at all, not directly at least. They were probably more worried about events in the outer planes and their ideological opposites on the Waste, and near the end of the Law/Chaos war, they were trying to keep the other celestial races from ripping each other apart over the ethical split.

The Rilmani were likely involved heavily, perhaps even conspiring with the true neutral elemental powers to make certain that the L and C sides tore one another apart in a phyrric victory for law that ended up in a balance in the end.

The 'loths probably munched popcorn as they watched the show, but more likely they were busy cleaning up their own house and figuring out how to behave like grownups, so to speak, after they'd been handed control of their own destiny by the last remaining Baernaloths (or abandoned by them...). "So we've been watching the stuff in the inner planes, and it gives us some ideas regarding our neighbors. The obyriths and baatorians are on the decline, and some new fiends are popping up, ones that aren't directly our creations, so let's conveniantly lie and claim we made the new ones rather than the old ones, and then let's start this thing called the Blood War. It'll be fun."

 

[Shade]

The 'loths probably munched popcorn as they watched the show, but more likely they were busy cleaning up their own house and figuring out how to behave like grownups, so to speak, after they'd been handed control of their own destiny by the last remaining Baernaloths (or abandoned by them...). "So we've been watching the stuff in the inner planes, and it gives us some ideas regarding our neighbors. The obyriths and baatorians are on the decline, and some new fiends are popping up, ones that aren't directly our creations, so let's conveniantly lie and claim we made the new ones rather than the old ones, and then let's start this thing called the Blood War. It'll be fun."

That's great! I just pictured a bow-tied yugoloth calling himself Reddenbachax forging popcorn out of souls.

 

[Shade]

I found another one...

Kizarvadexus is a demon of unspecified type slain by the Wind Duke Zosiel. (Dungeon #129)

 

[sckeener]

Is there a wiki some place for canon Abyss locations like there are for:

Demon Lord
and
Name d Demon Project

Something like name / layer / reference

 

[BOZ]

i don't know of one.

OK, i have finally updated this thread! i trimmed out a few of my own posts, moving the text to the first few posts, which now contain all the references made so far in this thread.

 

[Monkey King]

found this old ref in my PM box, and don't know if i ever included it...

You did, actually, further up this same thread.

Thought I'd add that I find that extremely helpful as I'm writing some of the Savage Tide. The odd part is recognizing some of the names I put into Planes of Chaos and have since forgotten.

In the interest of adding something to the body of knowledge, I'll mention that Doresain, the King of the Ghouls from Dungeon 70, is promoted into some sort of semi-divine servant of Yeenoghu in Libris Mortis.

 

[BOZ]

thanks, Mr. Wolf. glad this thread has been helpful, and you're not the only one to have said that!

speaking of odd names you put into Planes of Chaos...

i don't know if you remember way back, but maybe about a year ago, i e-mailed you to see if you remembered anything about the demon lord Volisupula. as you had just moved, you asked me to write back to you later. as i was asking to see if you had any more details as the Fiendish Codex I was coming together, eventually i realized that it was too late to ask you again, so i didn't bother. just wondering if you ever did talk to Erik about that one, or if he sketched together the details on that lord on his own?

 

[Monkey King]

just wondering if you ever did talk to Erik about that one, or if he sketched together the details on that lord on his own?

He did all that, as he is far more than demon expert than I.

I seem to be in the minority in that I think devils make better villains than demons do. So bring on Fiendish Codex II!