Design & Development: Simplifying dice pools

[MerricB]

On the other hand, rolling 20d6 for damage is really cool, and those rare occasions where you do get the unlikely rolls tend to be very exciting. On reading the suggestion, something in me just rebelled.

Hehe. Yes, rolling 20d6 *is* really cool. However, if you then have to wait 5 minutes for someone to add them up... for three rounds in a row...

Cheers!

 

[delericho]

Noonan done a lot of work to show D&D is too complicated.

I don't agree that it is. I think certain elements are too complicated and should be simplified, but the system as a whole? No.

These easy to use sheets are not easy to use for me... everything is easy until you don't see all these small fonts "add +1 for dodge", "defensive stance adds +2etc." and you must do all this maths again.

Surely adding a +1 or +2 here or there isn't that hard? Especially since there's nothing (as far as I know) to prevent the players in the scenario simply crossing off the original value and writing in the new when it applies.

In my opinion every designer who design something like "Your BAB becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per CL" should be fired.
It's good for computer games only (for me of course, because I'm not good at maths).

That's not so bad - there's no reason the effects of those modifiers can't be worked out ahead of time. After all, all the effects are known, and can be pre-calculated. Then, when you cast the spell, just turn to the appropriate page in your expanded character sheet.

Likewise, there's no reason the Fighter with both Power Attack and Expertise can't have sheets done with all his available combinations, and the attack bonuses, AC values and damage results pre-figured.

Big problems can occur when effects are applied to other characters, especially penalties. Energy Drain is a real problem, and if Divine Power were not a Personal spell it would be an issue (and don't get me started on Polymorph...). Of course, doing all this prep is bad for the DM, and you can really ruin his day by casting Dispel Magic on his BBEG Cleric and get rid of some (but not all) of his buffs.

But that's probably another discussion.

Besides, we're talking about 20th level characters here. The mere fact that he was able to get them down to a single sheet, and make them playable at all for inexperienced players is nothing short of a miracle - usually, by the time a group has reached that level, they have had months of play behind them getting to know the system and getting to know the specific abilities of their chosen character (and, IRL as well as in-game, experience counts).

 

[airwalkrr]

I'm with MerricB. I have had enough experience in high level D&D to know that dice rolling can be a headache and a severe drain on mental states. Hell, it's hard enough for the players in my AoW campaign to add up their bonuses, let alone their dice, especially after we have been playing for four or five hours.

In my next campaign, I am running a prelude in which I will playtest using set values for damage dice. I want this to be a fast-paced tactical game that emphasizes strategy over luck while maintaining luck as a relatively minor but still significant factor. The thrill of rolling is still there as we will still have d% and d20 rolls, but for determining damage, all dice rolls will be considered half the value of the maximum (yes, this shaves off a half-point of average damage but it makes for nicer and more predicatable numbers and slightly lower damage always favors PCs over monsters, which is a good thing). Hence, a d4 becomes a 2, a d6 becomes a 3, a d8 becomes a 4, etc. I may end up doing this with my AoW campaign eventually as recently (around 13th level) the combats have started to really bog down.

Among other changes to save time, I include:
-Dodge adds a flat +1 dodge bonus to your AC
-Power Attack is a flat -4 to hit for a flat +4 to damage (improved and greater versions allow -8 and -12 respectively)
-Combat Expertise is a flat -4 to hit for a flat +4 to AC
-A variant skill system in which certain skill checks are automatic to characters with a certain level of proficiency with the skill (e.g. Handle Animal proficiency, which is merged with the Ride skill, allows a character to automatically succeed on all Ride checks with a DC of 10 or lower while mastery allows automatic success on all Ride checks with a DC of 15 or lower)

It is my hope that these changes can make for a more fast-paced game where it is unnecessary to sweat the small stuff... gnomes for instance.

 

[Cam Banks]

It does occur to me that the sample characters used in the Dungeon Delve would be difficult to modify quickly if there was an antimagic field or targeted dispel magic used upon them. You could make some guesses, but not all the information's on the sheets (as Noonan says).

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Umbran]

I don't know if "most" DMs do this; I've never even heard it suggested before.

Yeah. If, as the author suggests, most players don't do 20th level, it is a bit hard to get the idea that most will still have the dice issue.

Playing off the averaging effect of dice pools isn't new, but moving it from expected to required does remove the chance of the rare oddball roll. When that dragon breath comes up all ones and twos can be very awkward...

 

[the Jester]

Hmm, I love rollin' all those dice. In fact, I even mock players in my epic game if they don't roll all the dice for a given effect at once!

I'm okay with other players pitching in if we're talking 40 or 60 dice or something, of course.

 

[Odhanan]

A lot of folks have been using "most" as a synonym for "some" of late, IME.

I agree. To some folks, that's definitely a trend.

I too have never "rounded" dice rolls this way. I've never seen anybody take five minutes to add 20d6, probably because players at our game table who ever reached that kind of fire power had been playing for years. For a one shot like the Delve, of course, that's an understandable decision.

Very nice article indeed. I liked the bit of explanation on the selection of spells and character abilities based on the one-shot nature of the event.

 

[reanjr]

I've used stuff like this before. Like if you have to roll 15d6, just roll 5d6 and multiply by 3.

I don't usually have all 15 dice, so it's quicker to just multiply, rather than roll multiple times.

5d6x3 is quite different from 5d6+35. The first is not nearly as center loaded as 15d6, and the second is way more center loaded.

 

[iwatt]

This may come off as insulting but if you can't add 5d6 quickly you are probably going to have a lot more problems DM'ing 3e than dice rolling.

The point of the article is to reduce time. And adding 15 dice takes time, unless you're Rainman. I'm not saying it takes very long, but it does take time that could be spent on something else.

Also, IME a lot of people who "love" rolling 20 dice are incapable of rolling it before their own turn. So they wait for their action to come up and say: "I'm going to roll a desintegrate." and once they have everybody's eyes on them they roll the dice. Now, if they did this once per combat I wouldn't mind, but they do it every fricking round.


I've been using average rolls whenever a caster has to roll more than 10d6. I think I'll start using Merric's table though. I also use avergae rolls whith CLW wands (5.5 hps per charge, then figure out how many charges were spent).

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Did anyone look at the damage output of some of those fighter types? I've only played as high as 15th level. That's a huge amount of per round damage. No wonder some of the so-called CR 20 critters are underpowered. The fighter gets to use Cleave after attacking them.

As to speeding up play, yes, average results in lieu of dice will do that. It removes the high and low ends of the curve - you know, when the monsters roll sucky damage or the PCs roll gobs?