D&D 5E Designing (Neutral)Good Mechanics For Alignment In DnD And Ways To Interact With It (+)

[CreamCloud0]

Alignment is a divisive thing in DnD with a history of being misused and misinterpreted both intentionally and accidentally by both players and DMs, but I personally think it still is an interesting concept that holds potential if only it could be worked the right way, in 5E alignment is mostly vestigial and on the level of impact of TBIF so I made this thread to discuss options of how to make it both meaningful and enjoyable.

Part of the crux of what makes alignment the source of so many arguments IMO is it’s subjectivity, there needs to be concrete established explanations of what defines the fundamental principles of each point on the two axis’s that are both broad, nuanced and intricate in their definitions, which traits are more fundamental in defining a creature’s alignment when they have conflicting interpretations (IE: is it more important to his alignment that batman has a strict lawful personal code of conduct or that he is a chaotic vigilante breaking the law), “What really is Evil when you get down to it?” Or “Well from my character’s perspective and their values I actually did a Good act” Should not be things your group should be able to debate because you have the definitions right there to refer to telling you ‘By these metrics, this is what is Evil’ and ‘No, Killing the widow so she didn’t have to suffer learning the knowledge her partner is dead isn’t actually a Good act’.

Now, as for actual mechanical implementations I think would be interesting, and the mindset of Alignment should be a springboard to jump higher creatively, not a shackle to tie you down,
Alignment Boons: each alignment has a number of benefits you can gain for being said alignment, unique familiars (like a angel/cherub for good characters), resisting certain damage or conditions (chaotic resists mind control, neutral resists radiant and necrotic) and other benefits (good characters have bonuses to defend innocents, lawful has an extra attunement slot).
Faction Compatibly: characters get different modifiers to interacting with various people, groups and extraplanar gods, demons and other similar entities based on their respective alignments and personalities, hopefully in a more nuanced fashion than ‘lawful and chaotic don’t get along’.
Aligned Items: Not ‘your alignment is forcibly changed if you use this’ or ‘penalties if you don’t match alignment’ just ‘you don’t get to use all the special bonus tricks if you don’t match it’s Good alignment but it’s still a +2 greatsword that deals radiant damage’ or that does something different for a character of each alignment that wields it.

Those are just my few thoughts, What are all yours on how to give alignment a reboot into something worthwhile? And please remember this is a plus thread so no trashing other people’s ideas or the concept of alignment in general.

TLDR: what mechanics or tweaks would you add to alignment to make it more meaningful and fun

 

[Stormonu]

I don't think you're going to get concrete definitions, there's going to be variance in folks opinions. Probably something to hash out by the table in a broad sense in session 0 terms. During play, I think I would probably go with a table vote - if someone at the table thinks an act grossly violates an alignment, rather than the DM being the sole arbitrator, let the table discuss and vote on it. Yes, this could slow down the game somewhat if it comes up and everyone starts arguing their case, but agreeing to use alignment in the first place is pulling philosophy into the game, and it's a good idea to determine everyone's stance on the subject so its clear.

Still, I do like the idea of allowing abilities, spells, boons, monsters and the like that have a tie to alignment in some form or fashion. After the first few conversations, most tables should have a good idea of what aligns to what and things should hopefully flow naturally from there.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I don't think you're going to get concrete definitions, there's going to be variance in folks opinions. Probably something to hash out by the table in a broad sense in session 0 terms. During play, I think I would probably go with a table vote - if someone at the table thinks an act grossly violates an alignment, rather than the DM being the sole arbitrator, let the table discuss and vote on it. Yes, this could slow down the game somewhat if it comes up and everyone starts arguing their case, but agreeing to use alignment in the first place is pulling philosophy into the game, and it's a good idea to determine everyone's stance on the subject so its clear.

Still, I do like the idea of allowing abilities, spells, boons, monsters and the like that have a tie to alignment in some form or fashion. After the first few conversations, most tables should have a good idea of what aligns to what and things should hopefully flow naturally from there.

Oh i agree you’re never going to get perfect definitions for alignments but it’d really help if the explanations the game gives us were much less ambiguous on what defines them, leaving it less up to interpretation.
‘for the purposes of gameplay the fundamentals of each alignment are X, Y and Z’

 

[not-so-newguy]

Alignment is a divisive thing in DnD with a history of being misused and misinterpreted both intentionally and accidentally by both players and DMs, but I personally think it still is an interesting concept that holds potential if only it could be worked the right way, in 5E alignment is mostly vestigial and on the level of impact of TBIF so I made this thread to discuss options of how to make it both meaningful and enjoyable.

Part of the crux of what makes alignment the source of so many arguments IMO is it’s subjectivity, there needs to be concrete established explanations of what defines the fundamental principles of each point on the two axis’s that are both broad, nuanced and intricate in their definitions, which traits are more fundamental in defining a creature’s alignment when they have conflicting interpretations (IE: is it more important to his alignment that batman has a strict lawful personal code of conduct or that he is a chaotic vigilante breaking the law), “What really is Evil when you get down to it?” Or “Well from my character’s perspective and their values I actually did a Good act” Should not be things your group should be able to debate because you have the definitions right there to refer to telling you ‘By these metrics, this is what is Evil’ and ‘No, Killing the widow so she didn’t have to suffer learning the knowledge her partner is dead isn’t actually a Good act’.

Now, as for actual mechanical implementations I think would be interesting, and the mindset of Alignment should be a springboard to jump higher creatively, not a shackle to tie you down,
Alignment Boons: each alignment has a number of benefits you can gain for being said alignment, unique familiars (like a angel/cherub for good characters), resisting certain damage or conditions (chaotic resists mind control, neutral resists radiant and necrotic) and other benefits (good characters have bonuses to defend innocents, lawful has an extra attunement slot).
Faction Compatibly: characters get different modifiers to interacting with various people, groups and extraplanar gods, demons and other similar entities based on their respective alignments and personalities, hopefully in a more nuanced fashion than ‘lawful and chaotic don’t get along’.
Aligned Items: Not ‘your alignment is forcibly changed if you use this’ or ‘penalties if you don’t match alignment’ just ‘you don’t get to use all the special bonus tricks if you don’t match it’s Good alignment but it’s still a +2 greatsword that deals radiant damage’ or that does something different for a character of each alignment that wields it.

Those are just my few thoughts, What are all yours on how to give alignment a reboot into something worthwhile? And please remember this is a plus thread so no trashing other people’s ideas or the concept of alignment in general.

After playing/running games exclusively with 5E rules for years, I plan to run a DCC campaign someday in the next 6 months (fingers crossed). One of things that compelled me to search for an OSR type game is Moldvay's 3-Alignment system that uses Law, Neutral, and Chaos. Anyway, I found this article that was written in 2014 that i think gives a great description of this system.

Third Rails of the OSR: Alignment

A blog about OSR, NSR, & story games from a blacklight poster heavy metal acid fantasy perspective. Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad for life!

www.kickassistan.net

As far as the 5e Alignment system goes; I don't really pay much attention to it. I think the Personality Traits are a good replacement for the 9-Alignment system.



Edit: i might port Moldvay system to 5e after running some DCC. Not sure if it'll work though

 

[Micah Sweet]

I have always gone by the 2e definitions, as depicted in that editions first printing PH. That was the basis of the Planescape setting, which did more with alignment than anything else in D&D.

 

[payn]

I like the 3E/PF1 era of alignment. It gives an extra mechanical playground with spells and combat. I like the weaponry in effects of axiomatic and anarchic. I always liked cosmic battles between Law and Chaos with PC/NPCs tossed in the middle. I dont recall what neutral got in benefit. Was it that it took no damage from either law/chaos or does it take damage from all of it? Either way I feel neutral could get a boost in things. Though, enough is there for folks who just dont want to join that cosmic battle.

 

[CreamCloud0]

If Alignment was more of a prominent factor then book of specifically based alignment quests and monsters might be interesting, like ‘hey, got a player or group of X alignment who needs a little boost? Here’s a god or some such who might be interested in recruiting them, a ready made mini-dungeon with appropriate alignment rewards at the end of things’

EDIT: specific random encounter tables that only appear if you have a member of the appropriate alignment in your group, you’re evil? Well this unicorn wants a piece of you, lawful? Here’s a storm spirit to ruin your day.

 

[payn]

If Alignment was more of a prominent factor then book of specifically based alignment quests and monsters might be interesting, like ‘hey, got a player or group of X alignment who needs a little boost? Here’s a god or some such who might be interested in recruiting them, a ready made mini-dungeon with appropriate alignment rewards at the end of things’

I like where this is going. I could see some adventure mods that put the PCs in the middle of a big alignment clash. Like a Marut chasing down a Simbul.

 

[CreamCloud0]

After playing/running games exclusively with 5E rules for years, I plan to run a DCC campaign someday in the next 6 months (fingers crossed). One of things that compelled me to search for an OSR type game is Moldvay's 3-Alignment system that uses Law, Neutral, and Chaos. Anyway, I found this article that was written in 2014 that i think gives a great description of this system.

Third Rails of the OSR: Alignment

A blog about OSR, NSR, & story games from a blacklight poster heavy metal acid fantasy perspective. Metal Gods of Ur-Hadad for life!

www.kickassistan.net

As far as the 5e Alignment system goes; I don't really pay much attention to it. I think the Personality Traits are a good replacement for the 9-Alignment system.



Edit: i might port Moldvay system to 5e after running some DCC. Not sure if it'll work though

Although I do think this is something good to include, specifying that there’s both mortal level ‘personality/characteristics’ and outer plains ‘inherent nature’ levels of alignment, there’s ‘I follow the rules lawful’ and then there’s ‘invested in cosmic order LAWFUL’

EDIT: sorry that wasn’t the link I thought it was, i was actually thinking of this post in another thread
D&D General - Alignment: the problem is Chaos

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I use alignment as what the PC or NPC is at the moment. Law is about fitting in (although who you are fitting in with may not reflect who is around you), but you want a pat on the head (if only from yourself) for fitting in. Chaos is about standing out. Both of those are based on the notion that you want someone (even if it is only in your own head) to pay attention to you. Neutrality is about acting in a way that others don't pay close attention to you. So, NG is the sneaky good and that lends itself to all kinds of mechanical goodness: advantages on stealth or persuasion checks, being able to cast disguise self or pass without trace without using a spell slot, or fun with inspiration points.