D&D (2024) Developer Video on Druid/Paladin/Expert Feedback

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WotC has posted a video discussing initial feedback on the One D&D Druid/Paladin playtest, along with survey results from the Expert playtest. Some highlights for discussion:

Druid: The developers recognize that the template version of wild shape is contentious. If they retain this approach, they would plan to add flexibility to those templates. If they revert to monster stat blocks, they might allow Druids to choose a limited number of options, with a default selection provided.

Paladin: The new version of smite is still intended to work with critical hits. If ranged smite persists, its damage may be adjusted through the internal balance/playtesting process.

Ranger: The updated Ranger scored very well in the playtest. Some players did miss the choice of options in the Hunter subclass.

Bard: All of the Lore Bard's features scored welll, but the overall subclass rating was mediocre. They attribute this to the loss of Additional Magical Secrets, which many saw as the key attraction of this subclass.

Rogue: The change to limit sneak attack to the Rogue's own turn scored poorly. The developers generally like moving actions to a player's own turn to keep the game moving quickly, but in this case, the change doesn't seem to be worth the loss of tactical flexibility.

Feats: With the exception of epic boons, all the feats in the Expert packet scored well. The developers are still loking at written feedback for fine tuning.

Conspicuously not mentioned were the Arcane/Divine/Primal spell lists, which were the focus of a lot of discussion during the Bard playtest.

 

[Incenjucar]

Druids frankly need their version of the Book of Nine Swords. The possibility space is very wide, but there hasn't been enough experimentation over the decades to really explore it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's the wrong question.

The question is what percentages and grouping of the current 5e fanbase should they design the Druid for?

The small known group who loves the 5e Druid?
The larger potential group who might play or use a less complex druid?
The larger potential group who might play or use an easier druid?
The larger potential group who might play or use a druid not as tied to Old School pseudo-Celtic themes?
The larger potential group who might play or use a druid not as tied to Wild Shape as a major exploration or combat feature?


This is exactly what a survey is/shouldbe for, To see which parts the Fanbase like most:

1. The Druid's Themes
2. The Druid's Attack Spells
3. The Druid's Healing Spells
4. The Druid's Explorations Spells
5. The Druid's Exploration Wild shape forms
6. The Druid's Combat Wildshape forms
7. The Druid's Library of Unique Forms

And build a class off the rankings

So it should be based entirely on whoever decides to participate in their extensively overwrought popularity contests? Pure lowest common denominator? This is why I claimed that WotC wont allow their creative to be creative. And that's best case scenario.

 

[Minigiant]

So it should be based entirely on whoever decides to participate in their extensively overwrought popularity contests? Pure lowest common denominator? This is why I claimed that WotC wont allow their creative to be creative. And that's best case scenario.

You're missing the point.

Imagine if there was another classic D&D Class. A martial class based on Cowboys. In this universe, Gygax added a Cowboy class to 1st edition.
And the Cowboy was the core representation of a ranged weapon focused character.
AND the Cowboy, as well as being a warrior, gets to magically change its bullets into magic bullets. Magic bullets for the DMG. Basically infusions.
AND the Cowboy class has magic.

Got it so far?
Fast Forward to 2023.

opens arms
It's 2023. Nobody watches westerns anymore. It's not popular.
People like the concept of Cowboys but its not the most popular thing.
People also really like ranged characters with trick and skilled shots. However those are tied to the Cowboy.

But now its all stuck of a Cowboy class with limited trope appeal, has elements that doesn't fully fix many settings, difficulty growing into other tropes due to classic class features bolted onto it, and requires learning the weapons combat system, spell system, and magic item system to se and a spell list and magic bullet list to play.

No shocker it is the least played class.

That's the Druid problem.
Either
WOTC caters to the current 5e Druid playerbase and refine it. Then tell them that this is it as Druid has the smallest base it will treated like second class citizens or redhead stepchildren after the PHB.
OR
WOTC caters to a wider net of potential Druid players and broadens the class. Then tell them that the Druid is losing some of its flexibility or power in classes class features for accessibility and ability to branch into new concepts.
OR
WOTC breaks up the Druid concept into 3-5 classes 4th edition style.

 

[Clint_L]

The cowboy analogy is confusing.

Re. druids, that's all the possibilities that you can imagine?

Also...you think that if WotC decides to refine the current model, they will also tell druid players "that this is it as Druid has the smallest base it will treated like second class citizens or redhead stepchildren after the PHB"?

Okay. I disagree with those premises. For example, maybe WotC tries to reach new druid players by increasing the class's flexibility, which does not need to limit its ability to branch into new concepts. Or maybe they try to broaden the appeal of the class by making it more thematically consistent. There are lots of ways they could go.

And I don't think that under any circumstances they are doing the second thing, either explicitly or implicitly. I think that is just silly hyperbole. "Red-headed stepchildren"? Seriously?

 

[niklinna]

This all reminds me of the day I cracked open my retail box of vanilla World of Warcraft, and I read that warlock was the most complicated class, and I went, "That's me." Warlocks were among the least-played classes, for a while. And then some new meta got out and warlock became flavor of the month. It might have been that one guy's PVP videos with the Seduce-nuke, I forgot his name. It's been a while.

I don't see why every class (and presumably subclass) should have to have the same % of players.

In any case, D&D Druid has never piqued my interest, and D&D Ranger has always missed the mark for me (heh). I tried a Druid in Pathfinder 2e, and it seemed all right. Lots of cool options, including wild shaping—totally optional and skippable. Or have an animal companion better than a Ranger's (if you're willing to pay the feats).

 

[Autumnal]

It heavily built around shapeshifting which is is not associated to Druid expect for things specifically copying D&D tropes

the interesting to me is this part here, because shapeshifters are very popular, particularly in romantic fantasy/paranormal romance, but also in fantasy adventuring at large. Not so much in stuff that we early Gen Xers are likely to read, but among folks in their 20s and 30s, oh yes. I suspect that a sort of bundle of shapeshifter ancestries would be very popular, and it would free up druids be nature priest-magicians and priest-warriors and such.

 

[Minigiant]

The cowboy analogy is confusing.

Re. druids, that's all the possibilities that you can imagine?

Also...you think that if WotC decides to refine the current model, they will also tell druid players "that this is it as Druid has the smallest base it will treated like second class citizens or redhead stepchildren after the PHB"?

Okay. I disagree with those premises. For example, maybe WotC tries to reach new druid players by increasing the class's flexibility, which does not need to limit its ability to branch into new concepts. Or maybe they try to broaden the appeal of the class by making it more thematically consistent. There are lots of ways they could go.

And I don't think that under any circumstances they are doing the second thing, either explicitly or implicitly. I think that is just silly hyperbole. "Red-headed stepchildren"? Seriously?

The point is that they likely wont do Option 1.

The D&D druid is based around the Nature-Priest Trope, the Shapeshifter Trope, and the Sage of the Older Age trope. However in mythology and fantasy stories, they are rarely combined.

So the D&D Druid has to balance the 3 Tropes by sacrificing elements of them as well as contend with the changes of popularity of each individual trope over 50 years. And that's before you get to 5e where WOTC decided "no more new classes except setting demands" and added the Shaman, the Witchdoctor, and the Elementalist to it.

So you have 5-6 totally different concepts in the core of the class. Not the subclasses the core. And you have to learn all of them to play it.

But unlike the wizard which is 8 magic school tropes in 1 class, the druid's ~6 tropes are split into 3 subsystems (weapons, spells, wildshape) to the wizard's 1.

So WOTC has to make the choice: Leave the druid to its 5e formthat is least played or changeit t make it more accessibe to player or flexible to narratives.

 

[Incenjucar]

If they insist on making wildshape such a core element of the class, it would be nice to see it interact more with the spellcasting side of it, like being able to burn spell slots for effects more relevant to a beast form, or to allow for more powerful forms. This also lets them reign in the base power of wildshape and make it something that can be used freely and fluidly.

This opens up a whole host of crazy subclasses possibilities that could burn spell slots for unique effects.

Really that would be a fun and thematic mechanic for primal casters in general.

 

[Mecheon]

The D&D druid is based around the Nature-Priest Trope, the Shapeshifter Trope, and the Sage of the Older Age trope. However in mythology and fantasy stories, they are rarely combined.

I, wouldn't say this at all? Because, there's one massive, immense place they are combined: World of Warcraft.

The 5,000 pound gorilla of the MMORPG space. An immense enough game that had verifiable impacts on MtG and D&D when it launched. World of Warcraft's druids are the most played class in the game, with the best numbers I can find suggesting 11.65% of the max level playerbase are druids, followed shortly thereafter by paladins and hunters. World of Warcraft's druids are very much nature priest (Using nature magic specifically, not holy magic, that's a very different thing), shapeshifters, and tapping into the more ancient primal side of magic.

WoW proves that its possible to have those aspects for a druid and have it be incredibly popular. In fact, I'm going to say, when people want to play 'Druid' in D&D, its the WoW druid that's going to be their inspiration.

A druid without shapeshifting is, I will flat out say, a failure at being a druid. Like it or not, Warcraft has set the popular image of druid, and shapeshifting is core to that.

But unlike the wizard which is 8 magic school tropes in 1 class, the druid's ~6 tropes are split into 3 subsystems (weapons, spells, wildshape) to the wizard's 1.

The wizard's schools are also kind of generally thought as the most boring in the game, I'd hardly call that seperation something we really want to chase after.

 

[Autumnal]

Gotta admit, WoW druids are a pretty powerful proof by example.