Dexterity Error in PHB - in my view.

[Gradine]

As an aside, I realise that initiative is very handy (especially for some classes), but is it really such a major thing overall? I mean, after the first round is over, does it really matter what your initiative count is? Obviously going first in the encounter is great, but after that, it hardly matters, doesn't it? If you disagree, please feel free to correct me. For now, I personally can't see initiative as ever being more than a second-tier priority for a character, given that 4E is generally NOT lethal within the first round of combat.

I will say that, depending on party makeup, having high initiative is easily more important in 4e than in previous editions. Positioning is far more important than it has even been, especially early on the battle. If the monsters go first and the party defender goes last, your squishier comrades are going to take some hits, and you're going to be spending the better part of the first round or two setting up your positioning.

Still, it isn't very vital, and if you're not boosting Dexterity for any power-related reasons (or possibly for feats down the road) than it's not worth boosting just for the Initiative bonus. After all, there are plenty of feats that fit the bill, and I do believe a few of those stack (I could be wrong on this, however.)

 

[Istar]

I agree that they could have and probably should have mentioned initiative. Overall though, I'm not convinced this is a big deal (not that I'm sure anyone here is actually claiming that it is); any new player who adequately reads and familiarizes themselves with the important parts of the Player's Handbook is going to figure it out by the time they fill out their character sheet anyway. Incidentally, I think you're probably correct about how the first draft of the PH came to be.

As an aside, I realise that initiative is very handy (especially for some classes), but is it really such a major thing overall? I mean, after the first round is over, does it really matter what your initiative count is? Obviously going first in the encounter is great, but after that, it hardly matters, doesn't it? If you disagree, please feel free to correct me. For now, I personally can't see initiative as ever being more than a second-tier priority for a character, given that 4E is generally NOT lethal within the first round of combat.

sometimes better not to win, our Barbarian won and the whole enemy had readied ranged attacks on the first character thru the doorway, he died, seems a bit harsh to me.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

sometimes better not to win, our Barbarian won and the whole enemy had readied ranged attacks on the first character thru the doorway, he died, seems a bit harsh to me.

It's the stupid striker mentality of "I win initiative - I go first". As long as all relevant party members go before the enemies you can and should delay to get an optimal char sequence.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Best stat array for most classes is 18/14/11/10/10/8 anyway.

That is a good stat array, but I don't think any single array is "best".

18/13/13 is also good.
16/16/12/12 is also good.
Even 16/14/14/13 is sometimes good.

 

[eamon]

sometimes better not to win, our Barbarian won and the whole enemy had readied ranged attacks on the first character thru the doorway, he died, seems a bit harsh to me.

That should not normally be happening - you can't ready actions outside of combat; the whole point of initiative is that it determines who reacts first.

Of course, if the enemy had a surprise round or even was aware of you well in advance (or something similar) they could have readied. Note that if everyone readies then as soon as the first person makes his move, you're very close to a surprise round, so it's generally best to avoid the above scenario.

However, it also might just have been a DM oversight, so if it's common to see readied actions outside of combat, then I suggest you mention it sometime; it does make things rather messy after all.

 

[Zaran]

That should not normally be happening - you can't ready actions outside of combat; the whole point of initiative is that it determines who reacts first.

I don't know. I think it should happen quite often. Monsters with any sort of brain shouldn't just be standing there waiting to be activated like they are in a video game. If the encounter before was nearby I think the GM should automatically declare that they heard it. I would give the PCs a roll to discover the ambush though. I guess that is what you were trying to say. Maybe the GM thought the party wasn't trying to be cautious.

 

[mneme]

I don't know. I think it should happen quite often. Monsters with any sort of brain shouldn't just be standing there waiting to be activated like they are in a video game. If the encounter before was nearby I think the GM should automatically declare that they heard it. I would give the PCs a roll to discover the ambush though. I guess that is what you were trying to say. Maybe the GM thought the party wasn't trying to be cautious.

That's the thing, though -- unless everyone is aware of everyone and effectivly "in combat time" before the door opens, readied actions aren't appropriate or valid. Instead, you use the initiative/surprise subsystem to decide who reacts first when you make contact.

If encounters are close enough that one encounter triggers and is overheard by the next one, etc, it's really a single encounter in multiple rooms that is weakend by not starting all at once.

 

[Zaran]

That's the thing, though -- unless everyone is aware of everyone and effectivly "in combat time" before the door opens, readied actions aren't appropriate or valid. Instead, you use the initiative/surprise subsystem to decide who reacts first when you make contact.

If encounters are close enough that one encounter triggers and is overheard by the next one, etc, it's really a single encounter in multiple rooms that is weakend by not starting all at once.

Not necessarily. The adventurers could have did the first encounter. Made a bunch of noise and then took a short rest. The goblins in the next room could have heard and had 5 minutes to prepare. Still, they should have (and probably did) had a surprise round. Whether the PCs had a chance to percieve the ambush... I don't know.

 

[jbear]

sometimes better not to win, our Barbarian won and the whole enemy had readied ranged attacks on the first character thru the doorway, he died, seems a bit harsh to me.

What the barabarian should have done was throw the half-elf Bard through the door.

As for DMs readying actions before 'combat' starts, well it all depends on what has happened before hand, how much the monsters know, and the situation at hand.

Imagine the PCs have busted down a door (making a hellish racket doing so) and slaughtered a few unwary guards. But they fail to notice the Gnome skulking invisible in the shadows. They also fail to notice he slips out of the room, down a short corridor to the mess hall, where the rest of the gang is having lunch. The PCs took a few hits and wasted some encounter powers in order to take down the guards fast. They have no interest in rushing in any further. So they take 5 minutes to get their breath back. Pretty 'standard scenario'.

So what do the Gnome and the now alert guards do during those 5 minutes... well they all get their weapons from the armory off to the side of the mess hall, darken the torches at the back of the hall, where they turn the tables to give themselves some cover, throw the benches together near the doorway to make a make-shift barricade. The captain whispers for them to ready their bows: ''Anything that comes through the door, shoot it... shoot it dead!''

So that is what they are going to walk into... Action, reaction. The world is alive and dynamic. Your not going to catch the monsters with their pants down every time just because you have high dexterity. And any rules interpretation that dictates actions can't be prepared until combat begins regardless of the circumstances is at best absurd.

 

[Kingreaper]

The surprise round rules work perfectly fine for that situation.

The prepared guys get a surprise round (one action each, just like if they had a readied action, but they get to choose what to use it for)