D&D General Did 5e 2024 Not meet the economic goals set, and if not, why not?

I keep wondering why people seem to think the three core 5E24 books were supposed to be this huge thing in the first place? As though the game begins and ends with these three books and that if someone chooses not to buy them that somehow that's a major failing and that everything is falling apart?

Because the fact is... these three books merely facilitate the continuing publishing of new books past this point. And all these upcoming books in no way require or need people to have actually bought any/all of the 5E24 core books. Every single group that had decided to remain with 5E14 are still potential customers for the next five years of WotC D&D publishing. Heck, every single group that has chosen Level Up and Tales of the Valiant are still potential customers for the next five years of WotC D&D publishing. That was the entire point of doing the 5E24 updates in the first place... merely a more in-depth hardcover printing of what would have been in the 4E-era a bunch of paper-printed errata sheets that players had to print out themselves and stuff into their PHBs and DMGs.

And the thing is... the 5E24 core books right now are probably selling in rather the same way the 5E14 books were, in that there wasn't any expectation of some sort of massive influx from either one. It took 5E14 years to reach the heights it eventually had... it wasn't this massive thing out of the gate. And the rise to those heights were only because of how low the game state was to begin with. Was 5E14 popular with the hardcore TTRPG crowd at its start? Sure, because it was a new edition of D&D. But a cultural phenomenon? Not even close. Not out the gate. It took the years of Big Bang Theory and Stranger Things and Critical Role and the rise of Actual Play streaming and celebrity interest and advertising from people like Vin Diesel / Joe Manganello / Deborah Ann Woll and the success of DDB and the additions of all the VTTs to the marketplace that took advantage of 5E's burgeoning popularity... all of that which dragged 5E14 kicking and screaming into becoming the massive hit it became.

And seeing as how 5E24 entered the marketplace of Dungeons & Dragons fandom already at a height so far above where 5E14 was when those books entered it... there no way 5E24 was going to be able to match the "appearance" of 5E14's success. Because there was little left for 5E24 to do. All 5E24 needs to do is keep the line solvent so that the next five years of publishing the new books still have an audience there to pick them up. There is zero reason why the three red-spined 5E24 books should be anything more than merely just the next three books up on WotC's publishing schedule. And if people choose not to buy them just like people might have chosen not to buy Fizban's Treasury or the Dragonlance setting book but will still pick up Dragon Delves and the Forgotten Realms setting book when those come out... then things are progressing just as they ever were. The D&D game line continues.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

From my local experience (local forum member and regional con organizer)
  • People have mostly forgotten about the OGL issue. There is still a flavor of the year game, currently daggerheart, but didn’t see sustained presence for any 5e look alike.
  • Most looking for games posts are for D&D
  • Most of those are using the 2024 rule set as a basis
  • People have generally been happy with the changes.
Cannot attest to the financial success, but at my local scene it is anecdotally highly successful.
My local experience (just a person with a lot of friends and colleagues who play D&D) is that only really hyper-invested people really understand what the revised rules are. The average casual D&D player doesn’t know what has actually changed in the new rules, and doesn’t really care to spend the time, effort, or money to find out. They already own 5e, so they don’t want to buy three new core rulebooks if the rules aren’t going to change much anyway, and they already know 5e so they don’t want to learn a whole new system if it is significantly different. I know one guy who wants to try the revised rogue cause rogues are his favorite class, but nobody else in his group has been interested in trying the new rules.
 

My local experience (just a person with a lot of friends and colleagues who play D&D) is that only really hyper-invested people really understand what the revised rules are. The average casual D&D player doesn’t know what has actually changed in the new rules, and doesn’t really care to spend the time, effort, or money to find out. They already own 5e, so they don’t want to buy three new core rulebooks if the rules aren’t going to change much anyway, and they already know 5e so they don’t want to learn a whole new system if it is significantly different. I know one guy who wants to try the revised rogue cause rogues are his favorite class, but nobody else in his group has been interested in trying the new rules.
Which then strongly suggest that it will be new player buying the new books over time. Or players moving to new groups using the new rules.
 

I keep wondering why people seem to think the three core 5E24 books were supposed to be this huge thing in the first place? As though the game begins and ends with these three books and that if someone chooses not to buy them that somehow that's a major failing and that everything is falling apart?

Because the fact is... these three books merely facilitate the continuing publishing of new books past this point. And all these upcoming books in no way require or need people to have actually bought any/all of the 5E24 core books. Every single group that had decided to remain with 5E14 are still potential customers for the next five years of WotC D&D publishing. Heck, every single group that has chosen Level Up and Tales of the Valiant are still potential customers for the next five years of WotC D&D publishing. That was the entire point of doing the 5E24 updates in the first place... merely a more in-depth hardcover printing of what would have been in the 4E-era a bunch of paper-printed errata sheets that players had to print out themselves and stuff into their PHBs and DMGs.

And the thing is... the 5E24 core books right now are probably selling in rather the same way the 5E14 books were, in that there wasn't any expectation of some sort of massive influx from either one. It took 5E14 years to reach the heights it eventually had... it wasn't this massive thing out of the gate. And the rise to those heights were only because of how low the game state was to begin with. Was 5E14 popular with the hardcore TTRPG crowd at its start? Sure, because it was a new edition of D&D. But a cultural phenomenon? Not even close. Not out the gate. It took the years of Big Bang Theory and Stranger Things and Critical Role and the rise of Actual Play streaming and celebrity interest and advertising from people like Vin Diesel / Joe Manganello / Deborah Ann Woll and the success of DDB and the additions of all the VTTs to the marketplace that took advantage of 5E's burgeoning popularity... all of that which dragged 5E14 kicking and screaming into becoming the massive hit it became.

And seeing as how 5E24 entered the marketplace of Dungeons & Dragons fandom already at a height so far above where 5E14 was when those books entered it... there no way 5E24 was going to be able to match the "appearance" of 5E14's success. Because there was little left for 5E24 to do. All 5E24 needs to do is keep the line solvent so that the next five years of publishing the new books still have an audience there to pick them up. There is zero reason why the three red-spined 5E24 books should be anything more than merely just the next three books up on WotC's publishing schedule. And if people choose not to buy them just like people might have chosen not to buy Fizban's Treasury or the Dragonlance setting book but will still pick up Dragon Delves and the Forgotten Realms setting book when those come out... then things are progressing just as they ever were. The D&D game line continues.
Given the somewhat messy nature of 5.5's changes from 5.0 (IMO), what I'm actually curious about is how useful books in the 5.5 line subsequent to the new core books for those who did not buy those core books but are instead relying on some other version of 5e as their base. We won't know that until they give people something else to buy.
 

Given the somewhat messy nature of 5.5's changes from 5.0 (IMO), what I'm actually curious about is how useful books in the 5.5 line subsequent to the new core books for those who did not buy those core books but are instead relying on some other version of 5e as their base. We won't know that until they give people something else to buy.
Having a bit of trouble parsing this but I would say that adventures will be ok. Dragon Delves is as useful to a 2014 user as to a 2024 user.
Subclasses, are a harder fit. Not impossible to adapt a 2024 subclass to a 2014 character but some adjustments may need to be made.
 

Having a bit of trouble parsing this but I would say that adventures will be ok. Dragon Delves is as useful to a 2014 user as to a 2024 user.
Subclasses, are a harder fit. Not impossible to adapt a 2024 subclass to a 2014 character but some adjustments may need to be made.
This is what I mean, yes. Divergent mechanics. Pain points in the rules for those who aren't directly using the 5.5 core. Is what WotC going to produce worth it to those who are using a base 5e game that isn't 5.5?
 

Because the fact is... these three books merely facilitate the continuing publishing of new books past this point. And all these upcoming books in no way require or need people to have actually bought any/all of the 5E24 core books.
That's not a good reason for anyone to go buy them. In fact it's literally the problem TSR created for themselves by publishing an endless stream of pointless books few needed or wanted.

Pathfinder got dubbed 3.75 because it provided significant improvements to the core without being a totally new engine like 4e was, 5.024 doesn't change enough to justify the decimal point shift to 5.24 by that metric. If wotc wants people to repurchase hooks that are written simply so wotc themselves can justify publishing future books to themselves and Hasbro, those books need to be more than a 5.024 level revision based on reading a "trust me" into totally unhinted tea leaf grasping because they obviously thought 5.0 wasn't enough to justify publishing future books on its own.
 

This is what I mean, yes. Divergent mechanics. Pain points in the rules for those who aren't directly using the 5.5 core. Is what WotC going to produce worth it to those who are using a base 5e game that isn't 5.5?
Probably for some. The subclasses are mostly doable, in 2024 they start at level 3 and after that (AFAIK) they follow the old sub class progressions from there out. So, change to level 3 stuff to the old subclass starting level.
The biggest issue would arise, if some element of the subclass plays off an element in the base class that is not present in the 2014 version of the class. Can't think of an example off the top of my head but not going to say there is no issue.

Individually the fixes would not be that hard, change the subclass, add something to the baseclass or adopt the 2024 baseclass into your game.
In my opinion both versions of classes will work fine side by side. Now I would favour using only one version of spells. But I could see a table with 2 different casters casting different version of counterspell and being happy with it.
I am less sure that 2 different casters casting different version of Cure Wounds would be happy about it.

Of the stuff that WoTC publishes subclasses would be the most difficult to adopt to the old rules. Not a lot of work needed but some care would be required.
Races and backgrounds will have some issues but are minor to resolve. I think that @SlyFlourish recommends that when using classes, races and backgrounds that the +2,+1 for primary and secondary stats are incorporated directly into the statblocks and any ASI from species, race, or background is ignored.
Feats, spells, magic items can be used as is and new spell can be incorporated without change as there is little or no change to the expectations or casting mechanics relating to spells.
New classes can be incorporated in as it with no change, since classes in 5e are pretty self contained.

Of the kinds of books that WoTC publishes, the ones least likely to be bought by players of the 2014 version are likely to be books with a lot of player facing mechanics, your Tasha's and Xanathar's, followed by source books with lots of player facing mechanics, the new Ebberon book or probably the new FR books. Books like Fizban's or adventure collections or APs should retain their attractiveness.
 

That's not a good reason for anyone to go buy them. In fact it's literally the problem TSR created for themselves by publishing an endless stream of pointless books few needed or wanted.

Pathfinder got dubbed 3.75 because it provided significant improvements to the core without being a totally new engine like 4e was, 5.024 doesn't change enough to justify the decimal point shift to 5.24 by that metric. If wotc wants people to repurchase hooks that are written simply so wotc themselves can justify publishing future books to themselves and Hasbro, those books need to be more than a 5.024 level revision based on reading a "trust me" into totally unhinted tea leaf grasping because they obviously thought 5.0 wasn't enough to justify publishing future books on its own.
I would disagree with the idea that they did not change enough in 5E24. At the barest minimum... they fixed a number of things that people were whining incessantly about for like the first four years of 5E14's existence-- the Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter feats... the Ranger's Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer abilities... the 4 Elements Monk... the Berserker Barbarian's Frenzy ability... etc. Not to mention all the people who kept insisting that WotC's choice to delay any sort of splatbook to give more player options were going to KILL the game.

These things ALONE were enough to drive people up a freaking a wall and they spent YEARS demanding WotC to fix them. And they were going on and on that they thought WotC should reprint the books so that they did so. Well, here we are now 10 years in and WotC have in fact done it... but now it's "no longer enough"?

I guess all those complaints back in 2015 were a bunch of hot air. That their beliefs in what HAD to happen for 5E14 to be success were not in fact based in any sort of objective fact but rather just the rantings of players who were pissed off that THEIR best Dungeons & Dragons game was not in fact a Dungeons & Dragons game that anyone had any desire to publish. And which is exactly why I think all the complaints about 5E24 might very well be the exact same thing.
 


Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top