Did any DM actually RUN the FR that way?

[Celtavian]

Re

Never had a problem with the Uber NPCs. Never really used them, so I won't have a problem with the first change at all. Total non-factor for most DMs.

I don't mind if they shrink the number of gods as long as they do a better job detailing each god. No more cookie cutter priests with access to every spell every other priest can use. No more feat requirements to get unique spells for a particular god.

The best change they ever made in 2E Forgotten Realms was the creation of unique priests with unique capabilities for each god. After that change, the number of people playing priests increased in my campaigns.

Gods with different portfolios should not have priests alike to other deities. D and D has always been very lazy with priest design. I hope they dedicate more design effort to priests. The priest class has the most room for creative game design, they should take advantage of it.

 

[Treebore]

I'm like the OP, never had the problems. I had plenty of uber plots for the uber NPC's to be dealing with. Nothing detailed, but obviously they had to have something to deal with.

Plus, they know that the only way anyone is going to be able to replace them someday is to let others deal with the "small problems".

"The Chosen"? Cool idea, something envious PC's can aspire towards. Why don't they solve all the problems? Because they are tools of Mystra. They do what she wants them to.

Plus, for every Elminster, every Khelben, every Symbul, there was an eqaully evil person out there. Not to mention Thay and their Lich Zulkir's and all the other evil dudes angling to take over the world.

Plus what the beholders, Mindflayers, Aboleths, and other evil races were up to.

Plenty of "behind the scenes" stuff going on to keep the big people busy while the "little guys" make their marks on the world. Usually with their grave stones.

Anyway, I am not worried about Faerun and what WOTC does to it. I'll only do to "my Faerun" what I want done to it. Just like "my Oerth".

Campaign canon is only that which the DM decalres is canon. Not some company.

As for the bad DM's who made these "uber NPC's" into a problem, you can't fix bad DM's. They'll be bad no matter what you try to fix. The only way to fix bad DM's is to call baloney on what they do badly and persuade them to learn better.

So until WOTC sends out "DM hand holders" to teach people how to DM well, bad DM's are going to be around no matter how much you rewrite the rules and the setting.

Presuming that they can fix such bad DM's by rewriting the setting, rules, etc... is nothing but a pipe dream. They'll just homebrew their own nightmares with which to torture people.

 

[Uzzy]

I know I didn't, but there again, I read Concerns of the Mighty, along with Make the PC's the Stars.

Bad DM's are Bad DM's, and pop up in any setting. It is not the fault of the setting they play in that they pop up. Blame should be placed appropriately.

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm not being flippant here, but have you not read pre-4E announcement FR threads here on ENWorld? The answer to your question is "yes, people absolutely did encounter those problems. Quite a few people, apparently."

I don't believe it. Most of those problems are only in the gamer's minds, but actually happen very rarely when playing. It's just that gamers read in FRCS that Elminster is a 32th level good guy and think "with such a powerful character in the world, what sense it makes that my 1st level wizard has to save the world"?

But then in no DM's game you see Elminster coming and taking away the PC's mission. Take away Elminster from the FR and what difference does it make to the game? Nothing. The PCs are still going to be the ones to save the world.

All these problems are not real, they are only made-up in our minds by assuming that boring things would happen or even should happen, but they don't happen if we don't like it.

Perhaps, the DM could think that because 100 powerful NPCs exist, they are effectively the ones pulling the stings rather than the players. And how is that a bad thing? The players CAN become just as powerful, only they cannot pull the strings when they are at level 1st, which seems a perfectly fair situation to me. Until then, kill your orcs, save small towns, climb your ladder... and those who refuse to, can agree to start the campaign at level 20, no problem.

That said, they can do whatever they want with FR of course...

 

[Li Shenron]

It's not a matter of good GMing or not, but a matter of plausability.

Example:

"Players go after Evil Warlord Blug Blug, a mid level bad guy, to save the town. GM runs it without any of the uber guys. Player wise ass quips up- so, why can elminister/chosen/ their 20th level apprentices wave their pinky finger and do this? ( there are numerous answers of course starting with that they are all out saving planar type doom, they don't exist, they are too busy to care etc.) but all of those reasons don'y jive on a continuous basis. "

I think you have in mind something like Superman doing everything, from saving NYC from the uber-villain to preventing every single car crash or pickpocketing, and saving each cat trapped on a tree. Which is totally inplausible

You're assuming things like that the job the PCs are doing at the moment is (a) the most important thing, or (b) the only job to be done at the moment. Instead it's the most important / the only one FOR THE PCs. Faerun is a gigantic continent, even with 100 uber-NPCs, each of them would not be really able to cover everything in his area.

Furthermore, you're assuming that those NPC actually WANT to do it. What if Elminster doesn't care? What if he's busy with a greater threat, or what if he prefers not to leave his current task of keeping another evil under check?

Of course if the DM is so stupid to present every single quest as "saving the universe", even when the PCs are low-level, that is indeed a problem. Of the DM...

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

And completely the fault of TSR and WOTC.

That's fine. WotC is still in charge of the novel writing. I don't know if the problem is Greenwood, WotC or both (WotC can't possibly dictate every last detail of his novels) but I think you can put characters in multiple novels without inflating them.

You may have identified the root of the problem ... but we still have this problem.

 

[freyar]

Not going to add much here, but I'm totally with the OP on this one. And I think Li Shenron makes some excellent points about the NPCs "saving the world."

 

[Khairn]

Completely agree with the OP. And with Li for that matter.


IMHO, the "problems" with FR that the new version is supposed to fix appear contrived, and are certainly nothing that I've ever seen. Sounds to me like marketing speak and and an attempt to justify the changes. Of course I feel the same way about some of the "problems" with 3E that the new version is supposed to fix as well.

Still its WotC's setting and their game, they can do with it whatever they want.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

In my games, the PCs are the "stars" of the game, and as such the get respect from all the "Big names" that could posibly recognise them.
For instance, if the PCs save Waterdeep from a super-manical god plot to destroy everything in all of existance, Kelben Blackstaff will notice and want to meet, help, or whatever with the PCs.
I DO however make sure that the PCs are of proper level to at least rub shoulders with said High Level dudes.
My Party is currantly on a mission to save all of the Univerce from collapsing in on itself, and have Elminster, Drizzt, and Mystra's Avatar on thier side. My High level NPCs are there to HELP, not steal the show. They're there only to add the support the PCs earned, Not blast all challenges to hell and back (heh new warlock) But just to help out as best they can. The PCs ALWAYS do more than my NPC dudes (yes, even more than Mystra)

It just takes some roleplay and discression on the DMs part to add whoever he wants to the party.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I'm not being flippant here, but have you not read pre-4E announcement FR threads here on ENWorld? The answer to your question is "yes, people absolutely did encounter those problems. Quite a few people, apparently."

I actually take issue with this statement. I have never seen a thread on ENWorld to the effect of "we play in the Realms and the NPCs steal our thunder all the time!" I have seen lots of threads expressing disdain for the number of high-level good NPCs and for the novels, but those seem to be posted/populated by people who don't actually play in Realms games, and are disdaining the setting from a distance.

In short: No, I have never encountered a DM who runs the Realms this way, but then, I've DMed every FR campaign in which I've ever participated. I do avoid the novels with a passion, though, and I especially loathe the offstage RSEs.