Did any DM actually RUN the FR that way?

[hopeless]

FR will they or won't they... appear!

When it comes to 4th ed, I have my concerns, plus I'm content with 3rd (which is something I couldn't say about 2nd). However the recent Blog Comments about FR have set off some really loud warning bells in my head.

Mainly, their percieved "issues" with FR I see as Strengths or never have encountered.


(3) In 4E FR, the PCs matter. The PCs are the ones accomplishing the truly heroic quests. There aren't a bunch of high-level NPCs running around who can step in to clean up the PCs' messes or do things the PCs can't.

I've played in 100's of FR games. I've ran 100's more. I've NEVER, EVER encountered this in ANY FR games I've played in. (However, I have played in some really bad games when the DM had a 'pet' NPC, usually one of his former PC's basically do everything). If Elminster shows up to kill the dragon to steal the PC's thunder all the time, the problem is the DM, not the Campaign setting. I like have uber-pc's around to both challenge and keep PC's in check (had one FR Skills & Powers go from 1st to 37th level, only once did an Uber-PC step in, that was at 5th level when they released 45 Fire Elementals on the Docks at Waterdeep).

I'm just not getting it.

They keep talking about all these things (fluff-wise) that they are 'fixing', that I've just never encountered the problems they think are there.

Maybe I've been DM'ing for so long and in so many Campaign Worlds & Game Systems that I can make adjustments on the fly. (from an adventure standpoint, that is what I do).

Ok, a long way to ask:

What they keep saying are problems, I haven't noticed. Can people post some of their actual experiences to help me understand the thought process of the designers.

It could go a long ways to easing my nervousness about what's being done to the sandbox.

Only time I ever saw one of the official characters was drizzt and it was part of the actual adventure which i found out well after the end of that scenario.
I suspect most of the problem comes from use in existing adventures thats if Faerun adventures and not the dm's own homebrew games where if they did appear would pose a problem.
I'd rather they explain the changes rather than lumber us with them but there's an easy way of avoiding that and just keep doing what you've done before but that doesn't help those with dm's with this issue.

 

[Dragonbait]

Re: Uber-NPCs

I've always tried to avoid using them. The PCs are the heroes, not some novel-based character. The odd thing was - My players wanted to interact with them and my players would say "We need to go tell Elminster about this problem! He can fix it!" and "Why isn't the Symbul intervening? She can do anything."

It got to a point where I couldn't run adventures near the Dalelands because they players constantly wanted to run to the local mega-levels to be saved.

HUH?!?! They WANTED to be dwarfed by some NPC?


Re: The Gods

I've never had a problem with the size of the pantheon.

 

[Jack99]

In my games, the PCs are the "stars" of the game, and as such the get respect from all the "Big names" that could posibly recognise them.
For instance, if the PCs save Waterdeep from a super-manical god plot to destroy everything in all of existance, Kelben Blackstaff will notice and want to meet, help, or whatever with the PCs.
I DO however make sure that the PCs are of proper level to at least rub shoulders with said High Level dudes.
My Party is currantly on a mission to save all of the Univerce from collapsing in on itself, and have Elminster, Drizzt, and Mystra's Avatar on thier side. My High level NPCs are there to HELP, not steal the show. They're there only to add the support the PCs earned, Not blast all challenges to hell and back (heh new warlock) But just to help out as best they can. The PCs ALWAYS do more than my NPC dudes (yes, even more than Mystra)

It just takes some roleplay and discression on the DMs part to add whoever he wants to the party.

Must be hard to put Elminster in there and not have him steal the show.. Unless he is played at 1/100th of his stats/abilities.... Then again, maybe your players are just that powerful.

 

[timbannock]

I don't run FR anymore because I have had a couple players that read all the novels (and sourcebooks, thanks to Barnes & Noble's comfy chairs and late hours) and if I ran something set in FR, they would always question "where is such-and-such," or "maybe we can recruit so-and-so." And so on.

Now, before you tell me my players are bad players and I should kick them out of my group, the fact is that they often asked these questions completely honestly. It wasn't like "Where's Elminster so he can do our work for us," but more like "Where's [insert similarly-leveled NPC from such and such book here] so we can hire him/ask him about [insert event that happened in the novel; or about an item from the novels/sourcebooks" or whatever. Anyway, I don't have a good example, but the point is, they were solid questions.

But because I didn't read and memorize everything, I'd say "I don't know about that." Good DM or no, saying "I don't know..." about anything gives off a certain perception.

So, I don't use published settings, or at least ones that the players know more about than I do. That way, they only know what I know, if not less. More fun for them to explore, more chance of me knowing what the hell I'm talking about.

Maybe this is all just my need to be superior knowledge-wise, but the point stands at least to some degree: FR (and many other established settings besides) are difficult to run because you might have players who know it better than you.

If you change it around ("This is MY version..."), they lose any sense of familiarity with what they thought they knew. I think some of the subconscious disconnect caused by these issues is what people harp on, fairly or no.

Also, I still feel like FR's villains are often very 1-dimensional. Maybe that's just me, but their motivations are "I'm evil because I'm evil, so I do bad things." IMHO, that's boring, but I know a lot of D&D is pretty black & white, so that's definitely just a personal issue.

 

[WizarDru]

For instance, if the PCs save Waterdeep from a super-manical god plot to destroy everything in all of existance, Kelben Blackstaff will notice and want to meet, help, or whatever with the PCs.

My problem would be, if I used the Realms, as to justifying why Blackstaff or Elminster or the Red Wizards of Thay or just about anybody wasn't aware or able to be involved with the threat at the time it happened? Yes, they balance out and I'm sure they're very busy. But if all of the realms or existence is threatened, it would stretch credulity for my players that only a bunch of 6th-level PCs could deal with threat. Once it might make sense, but certainly not three or four times. And that knowledge would rub my players the wrong way, knowing that the only reason they stopped the big bad guy is that Blackstaff was getting his nails buffed or Elminster had a hangover or someone else was busy with some other world-threatening problem.

I'm not saying it's a big fault, but it certainly was one factor that disuaded me from using the Realms.

 

[freyar]

But if all of the realms or existence is threatened, it would stretch credulity for my players that only a bunch of 6th-level PCs could deal with threat. Once it might make sense, but certainly not three or four times.

Isn't that true in any setting, whether or not there are big NPCs around? 6th level seems a bit low for saving the world IMO. That's just "local" level stuff.

 

[GSHamster]

Isn't that true in any setting, whether or not there are big NPCs around? 6th level seems a bit low for saving the world IMO. That's just "local" level stuff.

You can save the world at 6th level. You may not be able to kill what's threatening it, but plenty of adventures can revolve around things like shutting down gateways to the outer planes, preventing cultists from waking a sleeping god, etc.

The danger to the world is still the same, the difference is that you are intervening before the specific danger becomes manifest. But if waking the Sleeping God is going to destroy the world, why doesn't Elminster pop in and wipe the cult out?

 

[Treebore]

Uber NPC's are also an "Ace in the hole".

They watch the 6th level guys, or 14th level, or whatever level guys, via their scrying abilities. When those guys fail they do one of three things.

1. Raise the PC's back from the dead, and tell them to fight smarter.

2. Manipulate another group (the replacement PC's) into taking up the banner of dealing with the problem.

3. Take care of it themselves, because the problem is worthy of their skills and powers after all.


As for "6th levels saving the world", thats all a matter of perception. The ones who actually save the world are the ones who came along at the right time and the right power level to deal with the problem successfully. All the rest died.

Or you can admit that its the DM's fault that 6th level PC's saved the world, rather than saving such a idea for truly high level games.

 

[Arnwyn]

Isn't that true in any setting, whether or not there are big NPCs around? 6th level seems a bit low for saving the world IMO. That's just "local" level stuff.

I agree with that. I suspect that those people out there expecting 6th level characters to even remotely come close to an adventure in which "all of the realms or existence is threatened" won't find satisfaction in any published setting (and rightfully so, AFAIC).

And yet another who agrees with the OP. The "too many high-level NPCs" is simply internet hot air.

 

[timbannock]

And yet another who agrees with the OP. The "too many high-level NPCs" is simply internet hot air.

I don't know where I'm going with this, but: I had this feeling when I was running and playing in FR when I was like 16. That was well before I was playing around with the internet (other than for material of an adult nature, perhaps).

I couldn't pinpoint it, but the "too many high-level NPCs" is coming from somewhere other than the internet.