Did any DM actually RUN the FR that way?

[BlackMoria]

The danger to the world is still the same, the difference is that you are intervening before the specific danger becomes manifest. But if waking the Sleeping God is going to destroy the world, why doesn't Elminster pop in and wipe the cult out?

Lots of reasons why not. Here is just one.

Elminster isn't omnipresent. Faerun itself is larger than the USA and has a population of millions of sentience beings. Now, cults by their nature are secretive and tend to work behind the scenes. You expect one person to keep tabs on millions of intelligences to find out which one person or group is the 'current' group with world domination or world destruction tendencies? Even the gods aren't privy to the machinations of men and other gods. Savras, the god of prophecy and divination got gakked along with Mystra by Cyric and you would figure a GOD of prophecy and divination would have 'SEEN' that coming.

Despite having all sorts of field agents, resources up the wahzoo, electronic survelliance, satellite survelliance, humint resources, moles and god now what else available, why hasn't US intelligence found Bin Laden? Or prevented past embassy bombings. Or events on 9/11. Same sorta thing.

It boils down to being able to know about something and being able to do something about it. And being humans and therefore capable of mistakes, failing to read the signs, drawing wrong conclusions and the sheer scale of trying to keep track of millions of potential events which may point to 'world ending trouble' brewing somewhere.

Eliminster, the Chosen and whatever uber NPC simply can't be in the know about everything, all the time. It is impossible.

Which is why YOUR characters are doing this.

 

[ruleslawyer]

To the OP: You may want to split off some of the other topics for discussion, since I feel like there's a lot more to your post than just the Realms.

As to the "too many high-level NPCs": I agree that FR has too many of them. However, I also think that it's very relevant to the issue that seems to get discussed all the time: Namely, the role of the Chosen of Mystra as "Mary Sue NPCs".

Also, some people will simply dislike the way Chosen are portrayed in the novels, even if there is always an excuse for the Chosen to be away. The novels are part of the world, more so because they're canon. If killing Mystra makes just the novels better, I'm all for it. The complaints about Mary Sue characters in novels are legion, and IMO valid.

I'm afraid I don't agree with this. Game materials are game materials, and novels are novels. Unless events portrayed in novels bleed over into game materials (which, sadly, they do all the time), I don't think that DMs and players need to pay attention to anything in them for the purposes of the game. I don't care if the Simbul destroys five hundred Red Wizards of Thay and sixty-five beholders in some novel; it doesn't say "d20" on the cover, so it don't apply to my game.

That said, Ed did have an unfortunate tendency to liberally sprinkle high-level NPCs into the supplements, particularly in later 2e materials. If you take the figures in the Volo's Guides, the Menzoberranzan boxed set, and some other materials literally, there can be hundreds if not thousands of epic-level spellcasters in relatively small regions of Faerun. One of the best things that WotC did in 3e was to trim down these numbers somewhat, and they could go further. But I don't see the Chosen as part of that problem. There are a grand total of eight of them (plus one dead, and yes, I'd prefer her as a powerless, advice-giving spirit rather than a silver weredragon ghost archmage or whatever they're making her these days), and they all have very, very big fish to fry.

Elminster isn't Superman; he can't hover in orbit with super-hearing and swoop down at Mach 10 to save children from being run over by dung-carts, pull kittens out of trees, or what have you. More likely he's off wandering the planes, dealing with malaugrym and phaerimm and all sorts of other nasty things, and so on. Likewise for the others (and Dove, Qilue, and Storm are hardly at world-shaking power level anyway): Alustriel is busy attempting to hold together a federation in the most dangerous corner of Faerun; the Simbul has to contend with eight evil archmages and a host of lesser wizards; and Laeral is busy running Waterdeep, gathering intelligence in Undermountain and Skullport (which is in itself home to a number of nasties) and probably mopping up after the disaster that befell the Nine. The real outliers are Khelben and Elminster, who are powerful enough and motivated enough to "save the world" if need be. However, the fact that they're around also serves to explain in part why Faerun hasn't already fallen apart in the face of all these monsters, evil secret societies, and godly meddlings.

In short, I agree entirely that the novels and the simple fact of these NPCs being pushed front and center in WotC's Realms marketing can lead players to the assumption that they can do anything and the PCs aren't really needed for "save the world" type adventures. (Which, incidentally, aren't what Ed built the Realms for anyway; he seems to prefer S&S-type narratives with more localized, morally-ambiguous plots involving thefts, battles against hidden cults, and the like to monolithic LotR-style conflicts.) However, I have yet to see an actual campaign that shoves the PCs to the sidelines.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

To the OP: You may want to split off some of the other topics for discussion, since I feel like there's a lot more to your post than just the Realms.

As to the "too many high-level NPCs": I agree that FR has too many of them. However, I also think that it's very relevant to the issue that seems to get discussed all the time: Namely, the role of the Chosen of Mystra as "Mary Sue NPCs".
I'm afraid I don't agree with this. Game materials are game materials, and novels are novels. Unless events portrayed in novels bleed over into game materials (which, sadly, they do all the time), I don't think that DMs and players need to pay attention to anything in them for the purposes of the game. I don't care if the Simbul destroys five hundred Red Wizards of Thay and sixty-five beholders in some novel; it doesn't say "d20" on the cover, so it don't apply to my game.

I disagree with you on this (of course). I'm not going to sit down and count how many levels the Simbul needs to have in order to roast sixty-five beholders (her game stats don't reflect that anyway), but what she did "in some novel" is part of the FR world, as far as I'm concerned.

If Thay came up with a clever plan to attack Aglarond last year, but the Simbul annihilated it single-handedly, it's not just going to appear in a novel, it's going to appear in songs and tales sung around Aglarond and eventually all over Faerun.

Of course, it could be that FR is now based on the novels, rather than the other way around, and that is harming the setting.

If you take the figures in the Volo's Guides, the Menzoberranzan boxed set, and some other materials literally, there can be hundreds if not thousands of epic-level spellcasters in relatively small regions of Faerun. One of the best things that WotC did in 3e was to trim down these numbers somewhat, and they could go further. But I don't see the Chosen as part of that problem. There are a grand total of eight of them (plus one dead, and yes, I'd prefer her as a powerless, advice-giving spirit rather than a silver weredragon ghost archmage or whatever they're making her these days), and they all have very, very big fish to fry.

They don't seem to have big fish to fry. They're so much more competent (and powerful!) than the villains that the setting needs to add new villains to compete with them. However, if these new villains are capable of matching the Chosen, then they will overwhelm the PCs. Also, I think Mystra simply has too much "power" in the setting, numbered in many things, Chosen but one facet of that. If the novels could depower them somehow, that might fix the problem, but short of ambushing all nine Chosen and doing something to them, the only way to depower them is to strike down Mystra, who should be removed from her pedestal anyway. I always thought a deity of magic was a dumb idea.

Elminster isn't Superman; he can't hover in orbit with super-hearing and swoop down at Mach 10 to save children from being run over by dung-carts, pull kittens out of trees, or what have you.

He certainly seems like Superman in the setting, although of course he's dealing with all these big threats that in another setting PCs would be dealing with.

Dove, Qilue, and Storm are hardly at world-shaking power level anyway

Does anyone remember the novel where Storm killed the Bane-Malaugrym? She could surround an entire castle with her silver fire, which was strong enough to keep the Bane-Malaugrym stuck in the castle. She's world shakingly powerful, and people like the Simbul are far more powerful than her.

But then, the much less powerful Liriel Baenre can treat Lolth as her own plaything. "No, I don't feel like hosting Lolth today. Get out!" And it worked.

Alustriel is busy attempting to hold together a federation in the most dangerous corner of Faerun

Elminster had a much better idea when he gave up being the prince.

the Simbul has to contend with eight evil archmages and a host of lesser wizards

Isn't that stepping on someone's toes? She does it so easily (in part due to the Red Wizards being incompetents) that she can take time off to fight the second, third and fourth threats of the day.

However, the fact that they're around also serves to explain in part why Faerun hasn't already fallen apart in the face of all these monsters, evil secret societies, and godly meddlings.

I think this is also hurting the setting; all these incredibly strong villains that can't be stopped except by even more incredibly strong uber-NPCs. Most other settings put a strict limit on the number of excessively powerful villains (including the oldest method in the book, Sealed Evil in a Can (tm)).

Which, incidentally, aren't what Ed built the Realms for anyway; he seems to prefer S&S-type narratives with more localized, morally-ambiguous plots involving thefts, battles against hidden cults, and the like to monolithic LotR-style conflicts.

Unfortunately, they're not his Realms anymore. Maybe people assume any criticisms of the Realms are a bash on Ed, which is why his name keeps appearing in statements defending the Realms; I've never met him, and the only things I didn't like about his writing are Mary Sue-ism (not in all of his books; the Kingless Land book 1 was notably lacking in that) and the excessive feminine nudity. Maybe he should publish a "competing" setting with smaller plots instead of world-shattering plots, world-shattering villains and world-shattering Chosen.

As for whether such campaigns exist, they do. People keep mentioning them, and other people reply that "they don't get the Realms" or "I'm a superior DM" or even "you're just making that up", which isn't helpful for the debate. It's like some DMs are told "if you like the setting but don't like the Chosen, drop the Realms; we don't want your loser kind around here".

 

[shadewest]

I'm one of those DMs whose players disconnected after not buying my adjustments to the world. That was back in 2e, and I've homebrewed aver since. I know the change is going to bother a lot of FR fans, and they should be bothered. But between all the bad DMs using (ab)using uberNPCs and bad players looking for them, I'm not surprised that WOTC just gave and decided to reboot to clean all that nonsense up, from both sides of the table. Notice how careful WOTC has been to ensure that this does not happen with Eberron?

 

[Waylander the Slayer]

I think you have in mind something like Superman doing everything, from saving NYC from the uber-villain to preventing every single car crash or pickpocketing, and saving each cat trapped on a tree. Which is totally inplausible

You're assuming things like that the job the PCs are doing at the moment is (a) the most important thing, or (b) the only job to be done at the moment. Instead it's the most important / the only one FOR THE PCs. Faerun is a gigantic continent, even with 100 uber-NPCs, each of them would not be really able to cover everything in his area.

Furthermore, you're assuming that those NPC actually WANT to do it. What if Elminster doesn't care? What if he's busy with a greater threat, or what if he prefers not to leave his current task of keeping another evil under check?

Of course if the DM is so stupid to present every single quest as "saving the universe", even when the PCs are low-level, that is indeed a problem. Of the DM...

Agreed; then why worry about these NPC's going away, if they are pretty useless for campaigns anyway? If you weren't using them before, why is it an issue if they are not in the setting all together. If a "good GM" (whatever than means) is so bothered with this change, he can put all the uber NPC's back in, wave his wand and have them "not care," or be off saving other "greater threat(s)".

 

[ruleslawyer]

I disagree with you on this (of course). I'm not going to sit down and count how many levels the Simbul needs to have in order to roast sixty-five beholders (her game stats don't reflect that anyway), but what she did "in some novel" is part of the FR world, as far as I'm concerned.

If Thay came up with a clever plan to attack Aglarond last year, but the Simbul annihilated it single-handedly, it's not just going to appear in a novel, it's going to appear in songs and tales sung around Aglarond and eventually all over Faerun.

Of course, it could be that FR is now based on the novels, rather than the other way around, and that is harming the setting.

I really don't get how you can make this argument, to be honest. The game is designed to be played using the gamebooks, not the novels. I haven't seen references to any Realms fiction in the sourcebooks (as in, "see the Last Mythal for details of such-and-such happening" under the description of the High Forest, etc.)

I also find it interesting that every single example you list (villains being "incompetent," Storm's silver fire, etc.) is from the novels. Once more, the novels aren't game materials. They're not advertised or labeled as game materials, and there isn't even parol evidence to the effect that TSR/WotC intended them for use in games.

As for whether such campaigns exist, they do. People keep mentioning them, and other people reply that "they don't get the Realms" or "I'm a superior DM" or even "you're just making that up", which isn't helpful for the debate. It's like some DMs are told "if you like the setting but don't like the Chosen, drop the Realms; we don't want your loser kind around here".

And yet I see no evidence for the existence of such campaigns, or for people replying that those who run such hypothetical campaigns are using arguments like "I'm a superior DM." Your assertion doesn't make it so.

 

[Voadam]

I have heard of people having bad experiences with FR modules. I recently heard someone complaining about the time of troubles ones where the PCs big action/mission/quest as written in the module was to go tell Elminster about a problem so he could deal with it.

I remember reading that in 3e development there was a perception that in the FRs bad guys had become too comically inept and outclassed by good guy stuff everywhere. So the bad guys were recast in 3e as more numerous, competent, and omnipresent. Threats everywhere for heroes to deal with. I remember reading advice specifically stating that Khelben and Elminster, powerful as they are, could not handle everything. So the FR in 3e moved to a darker baseline.

For specifics, I can't really say, my direct experience is limited to playing in two FR modules, owning the free 2e module pdfs WotC put up, and owning Sons of Gruumsh.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Those Avatar modules are terrible! (Actually, most FR modules I've seen are IMO pretty useless, the exception being FA1 Halls of the High King, which is really more sourcebook than module anyway.)

I do remember the 3e designers (specifically Sean Reynolds) mentioning that FR villains had become seen as too incompetent, but I also remember Ed Greenwood commenting on the fact that this was largely a function of the depiction of villains in the novels, which was something influenced by TSR's "Code of Conduct" (which, like the oft-reviled Comics Code, demanded that the villains always lose, etc.). Can't find the exact discussion any more (the page that hosted it isn't available any more, though Google pulls up references to it.)

 

[GSHamster]

Lots of reasons why not. Here is just one.

Elminster isn't omnipresent. Faerun itself is larger than the USA and has a population of millions of sentience beings. Now, cults by their nature are secretive and tend to work behind the scenes. You expect one person to keep tabs on millions of intelligences to find out which one person or group is the 'current' group with world domination or world destruction tendencies? Even the gods aren't privy to the machinations of men and other gods. Savras, the god of prophecy and divination got gakked along with Mystra by Cyric and you would figure a GOD of prophecy and divination would have 'SEEN' that coming.

Despite having all sorts of field agents, resources up the wahzoo, electronic survelliance, satellite survelliance, humint resources, moles and god now what else available, why hasn't US intelligence found Bin Laden? Or prevented past embassy bombings. Or events on 9/11. Same sorta thing.

It boils down to being able to know about something and being able to do something about it. And being humans and therefore capable of mistakes, failing to read the signs, drawing wrong conclusions and the sheer scale of trying to keep track of millions of potential events which may point to 'world ending trouble' brewing somewhere.

Eliminster, the Chosen and whatever uber NPC simply can't be in the know about everything, all the time. It is impossible.

Which is why YOUR characters are doing this.

I disagree. The presence of high level divinations, information spells, and teleport means that Elminster can be effectively omnipresent.

You need to come up with a really good reason why he would not know about something.

 

[ruleslawyer]

disagree. The presence of high level divinations, information spells, and teleport means that Elminster can be effectively omnipresent.

I don't think that's correct (although it makes a great sound bite!). I'm racking my brain for ways for a 29th-level wizard to figure out everything going on in the world even if he spends 17 hours a day doing so, and I simply don't think it's possible. Elminster can't scry on the most powerful villains (since they have defenses, etc.) and there are simply too many little fish for him to find. Plus, he has to know the little fish even exist to begin with, right?

It's also beside the point in a way, since if it works for Elminster, it works in any setting that features good (or arguably even nonevil) NPCs capable of casting 9th-level spells. If Elminster's hypothetical "ability to be effectively omnipresent" using divinations and teleportation is destined to ruin an FR campaign, then so will Tenser's, or Bigby's, or the Chamber's, etc etc.