Did Gygax owe a bit of thanks to WotC?

[Raven Crowking]

That Gary owed thanks to various folks doesn't lessen anyone - look at any of his works, and you will see he was more than willing to thank those he felt deserved thanking.

The idea that Gary owed thanks to WotC, though, seems to me like an attempt to embiggen WotC. Does WotC really need embiggenning in this way?

Again, "Unask the Question".


RC

 

[Eridanis]

One thing I think people should recognize is that EGG loved gamers and participation on these message boards did not directly benefit his profit or bottom line. All the appreciation in the world didn't and doesn't translate to sales.

Here's an anecdote to chew on.

As some of you might recall, Gary was kind enough to run a game for us ENworld mods at GenCon '07. We had a great time, as recounted elsewhere in Rel's thread. At the end of the night, most of us had brought something for Gary to sign (for instance, I'd brought my 1E DMG, since he had signed my 1E PHB at a previous GenCon), and he was happy to do it. Henry had brought a friend's 3E PHB, and somewhat warily asked Gary if he would sign it for him. At the end of a long day of traveling and gaming (and on his 20th wedding anniversary, for goodness' sake!), and given his history with TSR and WotC, none of us would have thought less of him if he'd demurred. Instead, he was happy to sign the books; I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was along the lines of him being happy to sign anything that was D&D and helped people play the game he'd created, even if it was a different edition.

So I think Gary was happy for what the game had done for him, and appreciated that fact that it was still going strong after so many years. There are many folks who knew him better, but I'd like to think that he was grateful for what the game had done for him and his family.

 

[Umbran]

Does WotC really need embiggenning in this way?

"Need"? Dude, "needs" are things like food, water, oxygen, and shelter. Except perhaps in terms of the well-being of various employees, nothing in gaming is "needed".

So, I'd say need has little to do with it. Nobody "needs" accolades. Does that mean someone shouldn't be given them when they deserve it?

It comes down to this - should we not give credit where credit is due?

 

[Ariosto]

From what I have seen, Gary's participation in online forums was a personal pleasure -- both for him, and for us fans. Certainly nothing WotC did had a thing to do with my sharing of his interest in the English language (and puns in particular)!

As to debts ...

Gygax created D&D and TSR, and D&D and TSR created the RPG industry. The influence of D&D in particular on the proliferation of similar heroic fantasy tropes and game assumptions in other media paved the way for the success of Magic: The Gathering.

Losing control of his creations was business. Getting paid for his work as an employee of TSR was business. TSR's costly settlement with GDW to quash Gary's Dangerous Journeys game was business. WotC publishing (and outright purchasing?) his articles was business. The Swords & Sorcery and Troll Lord Games deals, like those with other book publishers before, were business.

The products of his work are worth money in their own right, and so is the recognition of his name. I don't see that WotC did him any greater favor than he did WotC.

I don't see how the eagerness of people to interact with him at Dragonsfoot had anything to do with WotC. Such eagerness at ENworld almost certainly contributed more to sales of WotC product than to sales of his own Lejendary Adventures game!

The reason Dragonsfoot had a lot of traffic in the first place was the continuing popularity of his most famous creation. The reason WotC's D&D and ENworld existed in the first place seems to me because of brand loyalty to the name of his most famous creation.

People didn't flock to converse with him because he was just some shmoe who happened to be one of a zillion posters at a big Web site. I reckon this very thread owes its popularity so far to the name of Gygax -- not to the name of Bullgrit!

If Gary had instead posted as regularly at more obscure D&D-oriented sites, linked (via, e.g., Google) to the likes of Dragonsfoot, I am sure they would not long have remained so obscure.

If he had been able to publish his game as Gary Gygax's Dungeons & Dragons, then where do you think a competitor from WotC would be?

Even WotC itself was not exactly selling 4e on the basis of how great 3e was. There's apparently a big "value added" in association with D&D "intellectual properties" going back to Gygax and crew.

Even the term "Armor Class", which is not trademarked and no longer retains even a shred of its original meaning, goes back to the Chainmail rules set by Gygax and Perren. Not only do a number of spells as well, but even the distinctive spell name "Cloudkill" in 4e. Ditto the various colors of dragons with their special powers.

 

[pawsplay]

The fact that Gary did not feel the need to censor his dislike of some later edition stuff, despite doing paid work in conjuction with it, to me says that he had integrity. I don't believe he owed WotC any more than he gave. I don't believe he undervalued the blessings that had fallen into his life. I think ENWorld has more reason to feel grateful for his presence here than he for being given the opportunity to do so. Gary Gygax did voice work on Futurama; has ENWorld ever been featured on Futurama? He was one of the pioneers of a culture-shifting hobby, and the idea that he somehow owes a collectable card game manufacturer for lifting him out of obscurity is ridiculous.

 

[Raven Crowking]

"Need"? Dude, "needs" are things like food, water, oxygen, and shelter.

Okay, "Dude". But perhaps you are being a wee bit pedantic in this part, and not really addressing the point?

It comes down to this - should we not give credit where credit is due?

Sure we should. But what does that have to do with somehow "lessening" Gary Gygax? He gave credit where credit was due, repeatedly. This is simply not one of those cases.


RC

 

[Piratecat]

Okay, "Dude".

While I agree with you that it's not really a valid question, there are much better ways to respond to someone than by being this rude. Please use one of them next time instead.

 

[Raven Crowking]

While I agree with you that it's not really a valid question, there are much better ways to respond to someone than by being this rude. Please use one of them next time instead.

Sorry, PC. I was attempting to point out rudeness, not to be rude.


RC

 

[renau1g]

I'm sorry, but is this thread really going anywhere? It seems like it's turning more and more vitriolic. Anyways, we all agree Gygax was one of the architects who created the game and deserves tons of credit for his efforts, but he was also compensated for his work both pre and post Wotc owning the rights to the brand.

 

[Janx]

So the question is, did Gary owe thanks to WotC?

Maybe he already gave his thanks, and we justy didn't see it. Ask Peter Adkinson.

Did gary say some stupid or inelegant stuff? Possibly. But he also said some really smart stuff.

Was Gary the be-all-end-all king of D&D?

Since the early tactical reviews, Gary expressed opinions on how D&D was to be run, played, and marketed. Some of those ideas, like not letting other companies produce add-on product are the opposite of what the OGL was about, and Gary was against that before 2E existed.

The guy was not infallible for design or marketing of D&D. That D&D is still around is a credit to be shared with others, because he wasn't driving the bus, and some of his idea were proven contradicted by 3e.

Overall, though, what is gained by digging too deeply, or trying to infer too much from what tidbits remain. The guy's dead. The guy made huge contributions to gaming. Let's not kick mud on his grave, nor erect a solid gold colossus in his image.