D&D 5E Did The Finished 5th Edition Change Anyone's Mind?

[Tony Vargas]

The issue I had was the prevalence, not its effect on the dice roll. In the games I've played, it's rare that someone isn't rolling 2 d20. It makes me feel like I'm not playing D&D and instead playing one of the many success based systems (WOD, Shadowrun, etc). Breaks my immersion that I'm playing D&D.

That's an interesting new spin on immersion.

The impression I got was that Advantage is not supposed to be quite that easy to get. Most examples of getting it require an action on someone's part, for instance. Hm... not that that would keep most rolls from having advantage, just mean that there'd be fewer rolls as some players decline to roll to get advantage later or give it to someone else...

 

[sheadunne]

I've seen the mechanic or it's equivalent (like re-rolls) in use quite a lot long before 5e and it never seemed a bad thing. Indeed, Advantage is one of those happy mechanical rewards for 'good play' that players seem to appreciate /more/ than the raw numbers (which are still quite good, as long as the roll is fairly close to 50/50 to begin with) would seem to indicate. (Disadvantage, by the same token, is extra-dismal.)

Is it just the binary, non-stacking nature of the mechanic that you don't care for?

It has nothing to do with the effects on the die roll, and everything to do with its prevalence and aesthetic on the game. It's rare in the games I played where someone isn't rolling 2 d20. It doesn't have any of the uniqueness it should have and breaks my immersion in D&D. The re-roll mechanics in earlier editions didn't have the same effect for me. It was still one roll at a time.

I can see how bounded accuracy might feel like advancing slowly, or simply having less room for advancement (I think gaining 20 HD and 9 spell levels leaves plenty of other sorts of advancement to feel, though). Is that what you mean by 'sideways?' That you get more stuff rather than doing stuff better? Because that doesn't sound so bad.

Pretty much. You don't get better at anything, but rather just get more toys to play with. That would be fine, but if my primary go-to spell at 5th level is still my first level spell, the new toys aren't very good. One of the things I always liked about D&D was feeling like you got really good at something over levels. I don't have that feeling anymore. About the only thing that changes with any regularity is HP and that is a stat I'm least interested in.

 

[sheadunne]

That's an interesting new spin on immersion.

The impression I got was that Advantage is not supposed to be quite that easy to get. Most examples of getting it require an action on someone's part, for instance. Hm... not that that would keep most rolls from having advantage, just mean that there'd be fewer rolls as some players decline to roll to get advantage later or give it to someone else...

Suit up a cleric with full defenses and just aide the damage dealers. Or cast spells that grant advantage to your allies. It's not difficult at all.

 

[Imaro]

Fairly obvious, really. Read tv tropes if you're stuck for ideas.

Does the game deliver the same sorts performances from the various archetypes/memes/tropes you find in genre? When it doesn't, is it justified by playability issues? Things like that.

The problem is since it doesn't draw on a specific genre within the immense and vague umbrella of "fantasy"... those things can and often do contradict one another... a Conan like protagonist vs. Aragorn... so no it's not fairly obvious.

Just one example that's been an issue since the game first appeared was the way it put all its eggs in the 'Vancian' basket when modeling caster archetypes.

Did it? Since at least AD&D 2e there have been official TSR/WotC alternatives to spellcasting outside of Vancian... so I guess that's not "fairly obvious" either...

 

[Tony Vargas]

Suit up a cleric with full defenses and just aide the damage dealers. Or cast spells that grant advantage to your allies. It's not difficult at all.

It is choosing to use actions to gain advantage. So, sure, you're getting most rolls with advantage, but fewer rolls. It's a trade-off that some players may like more than others, not an indication that Ad/Dis is broken or anything.

 

[sheadunne]

It is choosing to use actions to gain advantage. So, sure, you're getting most rolls with advantage, but fewer rolls. It's a trade-off that some players may like more than others, not an indication that Ad/Dis is broken or anything.

Nope, never said it was. It works as intended. Just not my type of mechanic. As a rarity it's fine. As a constant it's not something I'm interested in. When it was first introduced in the playtest I said the same thing. I like it as a once in a blue moon mechanic, but if it was set free it would dominate the game. I'm seeing it dominate the game.

 

[Tony Vargas]

As a rarity it's fine. As a constant it's not something I'm interested in. When it was first introduced in the playtest I said the same thing. I like it as a once in a blue moon mechanic, but if it was set free it would dominate the game. I'm seeing it dominate the game.

I see. One of the things I actually like about the mechanic could be contributing the phenomenon you're seeing: It /seems/ even better to players than it actually is, mathematically. If you're hitting 50/50, advantage is like getting a +5, you're suddenly hitting 75/25. That is really good. But what makes it look even better is if you roll 2 dice and don't think about one of them being the 'second' die. If you have a +5 to hit and you it on an 11 otherwise, then you will see that the +5 'helped' you any time you roll a 6-10, about 1 roll in 4. Advantage, when you're trying to roll 11+ to succeed, also helps you about 1/4 of the time. Half the time the first roll would have hit anytime, when it misses, half the time the second roll will hit. Simple. But, if you roll both dice at once, the only time advantage doesn't seem to help is when both dice would have hit (both 11+), or both dice would have miss ed (both 10-). Each of those is 1/4 of the time, so advantage /looks/ like it's helping you hit in half the rolls you make with advantage, in a sense, seeming twice as good as it actually is. That could contribute to players putting excessive effort into getting Advantage.

Anyway, if you're finding there's too much advantage too easily, you could always inflict more disadvantage.

 

[sheadunne]

I see. One of the things I actually like about the mechanic could be contributing the phenomenon you're seeing: It /seems/ even better to players than it actually is, mathematically. If you're hitting 50/50, advantage is like getting a +5, you're suddenly hitting 75/25. That is really good. But what makes it look even better is if you roll 2 dice and don't think about one of them being the 'second' die. If you have a +5 to hit and you it on an 11 otherwise, then you will see that the +5 'helped' you any time you roll a 6-10, about 1 roll in 4. Advantage, when you're trying to roll 11+ to succeed, also helps you about 1/4 of the time. Half the time the first roll would have hit anytime, when it misses, half the time the second roll will hit. Simple. But, if you roll both dice at once, the only time advantage doesn't seem to help is when both dice would have hit (both 11+), or both dice would have miss ed (both 10-). Each of those is 1/4 of the time, so advantage /looks/ like it's helping you hit in half the rolls you make with advantage, in a sense, seeming twice as good as it actually is. That could contribute to players putting excessive effort into getting Advantage.

Anyway, if you're finding there's too much advantage too easily, you could always inflict more disadvantage.

There's already enough of that rolling around as well. If we're rolling 2d20 more than 1d20 in the course of a game, I lose that magical D&D feeling. The all or nothing single d20 roll. The swingyness of the D&D combat system is one of its hallmark traits. It's horrible and it's perfectly D&D. Making it easier to get around it, either through stacking bonuses or getting adv/dis chips away at that crazy feeling and makes me feel like I'm playing a different sort of game. Now if it was more limited and relied solely on using in game resources (feats, spells, powers, etc) then it might become something unique and interesting. As it is in the games I've played, it's mundane and tedious. I haven't encountered anyone who has experienced the same feeling, but it's been my feeling since the playtests (in trying to keep with the thread topic). And to make it clear, I don't think the mechanic is bad or broken or anything else, it's just not what I'm looking for in D&D as a standard core function of the game.

 

[Tony Vargas]

There's already enough of that rolling around as well. If we're rolling 2d20 more than 1d20 in the course of a game, I lose that magical D&D feeling. The all or nothing single d20 roll. The swingyness of the D&D combat system is one of its hallmark traits. It's horrible and it's perfectly D&D. Making it easier to get around it, either through stacking bonuses or getting adv/dis chips away at that crazy feeling and makes me feel like I'm playing a different sort of game.

OK, I get it, for you personally, ad/dis kills 5e's otherwise classic-D&D feel. For me it doesn't, but we don't all have the same nostalgia triggers. (Though, for me personally, stacking bonuses get a very classic-D&D-feel going, because there was quite a lot of that - from having way too many magic items in old Monty Haul campaigns)

Now if it was more limited and relied solely on using in game resources (feats, spells, powers, etc) then it might become something unique and interesting. As it is in the games I've played, it's mundane and tedious. I haven't encountered anyone who has experienced the same feeling, but it's been my feeling since the playtests (in trying to keep with the thread topic). And to make it clear, I don't think the mechanic is bad or broken or anything else, it's just not what I'm looking for in D&D as a standard core function of the game.

If you also don't like stacking bonuses, then you need an alternative to ad/dis that still accomplishes the same thing (doing away with a lot of fiddly combat modifiers by consolidating them all into a binary state), but does less to negate the old-timey 'swing' of the d20. You could simply change Advantage to giving you a +2 and Disadvantage a -2 (both non-stacking with multiple sources). Not as impactful as 2d20, and doesn't have that quality of seeming even better/worse than it is, mathematically. Should quell the players' enthusiasm for it, a little, and leaves the d20 roll a flat distribution.