WayOfTheFourElements
Hero
I think it's a bit wider than that. Death, Grave, Knowledge, Life, and War all represent the AD&D cleric fairly well.
D&D 5E Differentiating Arcane and Divine Magic.
TwoSix
Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I'd be open to giving them radiant and necrotic damage, and all the other damage types go to arcane. I mean, even white mages get Holy.
The cleric/wizard separation has been subsumed into pop fantasy by the healer/blaster or white magic/black magic divide for so long that it seems weird that D&D doesn't iterate on the trope it created.
Doug McCrae
Legend
One approach could be to distinguish between three types of magic - holy, diabolic, and natural. Holy magic comes from the good gods. It can be used to heal, protect, and to thwart or destroy evil. Diabolic is the reverse and comes from the evil gods or demons. Natural magic is the preserve of the wizard. It can be used for a wide variety of purposes but it's time consuming and expensive, requiring rituals, astrological calculations, or the creation of potions, amulets/talismans, images and the like.
This would be somewhat like real world medieval and early modern European beliefs about magic. It seems like it could be game-able (the three types of magic feel quite distinct I think, and natural magic has major limitations despite its versatility). It's very old school, resembling 1974 OD&D (clerics could only be good or evil, not neutral), and I think would be too limited for most people's taste. In this system I'm afraid there are no druids or bards.
This would be somewhat like real world medieval and early modern European beliefs about magic. It seems like it could be game-able (the three types of magic feel quite distinct I think, and natural magic has major limitations despite its versatility). It's very old school, resembling 1974 OD&D (clerics could only be good or evil, not neutral), and I think would be too limited for most people's taste. In this system I'm afraid there are no druids or bards.
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Xeviat
Hero
I do really like the Arcane, Divine, Primal, Occult split of Pathfinder 2. It also created a really nice mechanic for the Sorcerer, whose bloodline can allow them to choose which set of spells to choose from. I, for one, don't really like the Bard as a full 1-9 caster, so having a fantasy version of the Psion (like the Mystic) as the full Occult class would work well for me.
The line between arcane and occult, though, is difficult to parse without being told.
The line between arcane and occult, though, is difficult to parse without being told.
bitspersecond
Villager
Responding to this very old thread just for a place to put my thoughts down ... This is how I would make different kinds of magic FEEL different within the mechanics of the game.
Arcane Magic:
No more spell slots for Wizards. Arcane magic by a wizard is a learned process. Instead, Arcana skill check to cast a spell with DC = (spell level + 1) x 2. So, DC 20 for 9th level spells down to DC 4 for 1st level spells. A nat 1 is not an automatic failure. To cast another spell requires you to wait that many rounds, so casting another 9th level spell will require you to wait 9 rounds even to cast a 1st level. You can cast a 1st level every round (b/c you would have waited 1 round). Cantrips and spells can be combined as with the existing rules b/c there is no waiting needed to cast cantrips beyond the existing rule. A skill check that doesn't succeed causes some kind of backlash based on the level so spell being attempted, with harshness also based on level. A skill check that succeeds, but only within 5 requires another roll of the same DC or gain a level of exhaustion (so, a 1st level spell might get a level of exhaustion on a roll of 9 and then a roll of 1-4, but that is with NO proficiency in Arcana). Learning spells takes time and tutelage. Time it takes to learn a spell is spell level squared in days in QUIET contemplation, study, and practice so probably not something that can be done while fighting monsters. So, 1 day to learn a first level spell, almost a month for a 5th (25 days), bit more than a month for a 6th (36 days) and nearly 3 months for a 9th. They then need to immediately demonstrate that they could cast the spell successfully (by passing the Arcana skill check for the spell), but this does not actually cast the spell. If they fail, that spell is not available to them because they couldn't figure out how it works, otherwise they now know the spell. Also, no more just getting two new spells when you level up, they have to be discovered on scrolls or spell books and then the learning can begin. (Maybe you can create your own spells but the learning time is tripled and costs mucho gold.) Also, with no more spell slots, there is no more upcasting. Instead the effect of upcasting is gained by using more expensive (read: you must adventure for them) spell components. Are they consumed? Maybe, case-by-case basis but I'd say generally yeah depending on how much upcasting power they confer and how good they are. This FEELS more like a wizard of fantasy to me.
To lower the impact of those rules: A spell can be held, up to the moment of casting, and then unleashed that round with the skill roll then taking place. Holding a spell allows the time needed to pass before casting another spell happens. This holding of a spell is an act of concentration and if concentration is broken the held spell is lost. So, a wizard could prepare a 2nd level spell, spend at least one round concentrating on it, and then unleash the spell (if a successful Arcana skill check of DC 6 is made), and then cast another spell on the following round. In this way a Wizard, with the right circumstances, planning, and luck cast two 9th level spells back-to-back and creates a high-risk/high-reward setup. Wizards are still limited to how high a level of spell they can cast as before (so no 9th level spells until achieving wizard level 17). Even with this planning, things could go wrong on the first (held) casting and cause a level of exhaustion, so this carries a level of risk. Wands could come in +1 to +3 varieties that provide a bonus to the Arcane casting check. How the enforced delay interacts with reaction spells like counterspell, feather fall, absorb elements, etc. would take some thinking. There might need to be an exception made for those but given that any cantrips or 1st level spells known can now be cast all day long every round, it's probably worth keeping the above rule as-is. I could also envision making the skill check harder when you know more spells (say, +1 to the DC for every 10 level of spells learned).
Divine Magic:
Spells slots still exist, but instead of subclasses gaining spells that are always considered prepared there are certain spells that are off limits (so, a god of darkness doesn't grant darkness spell, but denies light spells instead, for example). That's b/c 'spells' for clerics are actually miracles brought into the world by the power of their deity channeled through them. However, there is no rolling, they ALWAYS work b/c they ARE miracles. However, although guaranteed to work, they only work at the lowest level of possible success, meaning no more upcasting of cleric spells. Instead of preparing spells ahead of time, all spells are on the table at the moment it is the characters turn (as long as they have all the other requirements met such as material components), because spells slots don't represent a specific miracle/spell but a specific power level of miracle.
Sorcerous Magic:
This is arcane magic that comes from with, from 'the blood' itself because the caster is magic in some way. However, they don't need arcane focuses any more (why? They ARE magic). There is no rolling for success, because this isn't a skill. They still have spell slots and still the same limit on spell selection as before (once gained, they can't change; this is the downside of being a sorcerer). However, in order to upcast requires them to sacrifice 1 HD per level of increase, with the HD recovered as normal with rest. So, they are essentially sacrificing their life force to increase the power of a spell. New spells are gained the same way (but I would hope the choices have something to do with the subclass or background chosen and not just for mechanical power).
Warlock Magic:
This is a kind divine magic, but gained from a powerful being that is not a god exactly, they are actually sacrificing something of themselves, so they are going to expect to be getting something for it. So, spells need to be prepared ahead of time unlike the other 3 classes. Warlock's choose each day from their warlock spell lists, with some spells always being prepared (the ones from the subclasses Expanded Spells). The warlock does not learn spells even though the Warlock description under Pact Magic uses that word, they are granted as boons by the patron. Spells Known becomes Spells Known for that day until you beseech your Patron again for specific powers (you HAVE been good to your Patron, haven't you??). There is no 'upcasting', per se, b/c the spell slots of Warlocks are fixed as it has always been. Being granted new spells (again, they aren't learnt) at higher character levels happens as normal, this unlocks a new and deeper relationship between character and Patron.
Arcane Magic:
No more spell slots for Wizards. Arcane magic by a wizard is a learned process. Instead, Arcana skill check to cast a spell with DC = (spell level + 1) x 2. So, DC 20 for 9th level spells down to DC 4 for 1st level spells. A nat 1 is not an automatic failure. To cast another spell requires you to wait that many rounds, so casting another 9th level spell will require you to wait 9 rounds even to cast a 1st level. You can cast a 1st level every round (b/c you would have waited 1 round). Cantrips and spells can be combined as with the existing rules b/c there is no waiting needed to cast cantrips beyond the existing rule. A skill check that doesn't succeed causes some kind of backlash based on the level so spell being attempted, with harshness also based on level. A skill check that succeeds, but only within 5 requires another roll of the same DC or gain a level of exhaustion (so, a 1st level spell might get a level of exhaustion on a roll of 9 and then a roll of 1-4, but that is with NO proficiency in Arcana). Learning spells takes time and tutelage. Time it takes to learn a spell is spell level squared in days in QUIET contemplation, study, and practice so probably not something that can be done while fighting monsters. So, 1 day to learn a first level spell, almost a month for a 5th (25 days), bit more than a month for a 6th (36 days) and nearly 3 months for a 9th. They then need to immediately demonstrate that they could cast the spell successfully (by passing the Arcana skill check for the spell), but this does not actually cast the spell. If they fail, that spell is not available to them because they couldn't figure out how it works, otherwise they now know the spell. Also, no more just getting two new spells when you level up, they have to be discovered on scrolls or spell books and then the learning can begin. (Maybe you can create your own spells but the learning time is tripled and costs mucho gold.) Also, with no more spell slots, there is no more upcasting. Instead the effect of upcasting is gained by using more expensive (read: you must adventure for them) spell components. Are they consumed? Maybe, case-by-case basis but I'd say generally yeah depending on how much upcasting power they confer and how good they are. This FEELS more like a wizard of fantasy to me.
To lower the impact of those rules: A spell can be held, up to the moment of casting, and then unleashed that round with the skill roll then taking place. Holding a spell allows the time needed to pass before casting another spell happens. This holding of a spell is an act of concentration and if concentration is broken the held spell is lost. So, a wizard could prepare a 2nd level spell, spend at least one round concentrating on it, and then unleash the spell (if a successful Arcana skill check of DC 6 is made), and then cast another spell on the following round. In this way a Wizard, with the right circumstances, planning, and luck cast two 9th level spells back-to-back and creates a high-risk/high-reward setup. Wizards are still limited to how high a level of spell they can cast as before (so no 9th level spells until achieving wizard level 17). Even with this planning, things could go wrong on the first (held) casting and cause a level of exhaustion, so this carries a level of risk. Wands could come in +1 to +3 varieties that provide a bonus to the Arcane casting check. How the enforced delay interacts with reaction spells like counterspell, feather fall, absorb elements, etc. would take some thinking. There might need to be an exception made for those but given that any cantrips or 1st level spells known can now be cast all day long every round, it's probably worth keeping the above rule as-is. I could also envision making the skill check harder when you know more spells (say, +1 to the DC for every 10 level of spells learned).
Divine Magic:
Spells slots still exist, but instead of subclasses gaining spells that are always considered prepared there are certain spells that are off limits (so, a god of darkness doesn't grant darkness spell, but denies light spells instead, for example). That's b/c 'spells' for clerics are actually miracles brought into the world by the power of their deity channeled through them. However, there is no rolling, they ALWAYS work b/c they ARE miracles. However, although guaranteed to work, they only work at the lowest level of possible success, meaning no more upcasting of cleric spells. Instead of preparing spells ahead of time, all spells are on the table at the moment it is the characters turn (as long as they have all the other requirements met such as material components), because spells slots don't represent a specific miracle/spell but a specific power level of miracle.
Sorcerous Magic:
This is arcane magic that comes from with, from 'the blood' itself because the caster is magic in some way. However, they don't need arcane focuses any more (why? They ARE magic). There is no rolling for success, because this isn't a skill. They still have spell slots and still the same limit on spell selection as before (once gained, they can't change; this is the downside of being a sorcerer). However, in order to upcast requires them to sacrifice 1 HD per level of increase, with the HD recovered as normal with rest. So, they are essentially sacrificing their life force to increase the power of a spell. New spells are gained the same way (but I would hope the choices have something to do with the subclass or background chosen and not just for mechanical power).
Warlock Magic:
This is a kind divine magic, but gained from a powerful being that is not a god exactly, they are actually sacrificing something of themselves, so they are going to expect to be getting something for it. So, spells need to be prepared ahead of time unlike the other 3 classes. Warlock's choose each day from their warlock spell lists, with some spells always being prepared (the ones from the subclasses Expanded Spells). The warlock does not learn spells even though the Warlock description under Pact Magic uses that word, they are granted as boons by the patron. Spells Known becomes Spells Known for that day until you beseech your Patron again for specific powers (you HAVE been good to your Patron, haven't you??). There is no 'upcasting', per se, b/c the spell slots of Warlocks are fixed as it has always been. Being granted new spells (again, they aren't learnt) at higher character levels happens as normal, this unlocks a new and deeper relationship between character and Patron.
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
MechaTarrasque
Hero
It would be hard to square this with the long history of the game, but if we were starting from scratch, I think I would make divine magic more ritualistic: the cleric can't blast anyone because it takes at least a minute to cast a spell, and the wizard can't cure diseases in the middle of a fight because the disease is now a demon living on another plane, and the wizard, not having a ritual to put part of his/her spirit onto that other plane to fight the demon, would have to physically teleport to the other plane to fight the demon, which is a lot easier when you aren't fighting a zombie horde. Paladins are just divine casters who use melee combat as the ritual to cast their spells.
Of course, to make this work, more things would have to be able to be dealt with ritually....
Of course, to make this work, more things would have to be able to be dealt with ritually....
Celebrim
Legend
In my game the difference is very clear: arcane magic is the stuff you do yourself out of your own power and divine magic is the stuff you persuade something else to do on your behalf.
I haven't started running 5e but in my 3.Xe campaign there are 4 primary casters - wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and shamans. Those represent all 4 combinations of arcane/divine and prepared/spontaneous casting.
Bards are basically "half-caster" wizards from a different tradition and Champions (aka "Paladins") are basically "half-caster" clerics with a slightly different relationship to their deities. There is also a "half-caster" arcane class with spell-like abilities rather than spells called the Feyborn (mostly used by NPC fairies as it originally started out as a way to increase Fey HD will systematically increasing spellcasting abilities).
There are no psionics per se in my current game. The reason for this is that there is nothing distinctive about the flavor of psionists IMO. Back in the day when Psionics were first introduced into the game, they were distinguished by being a form of magic that wasn't directly tied to your level. That was distinctive. They let you have powerful magic users without giving them a lot of HD, or children without a lot of experience born powerful. But as soon as psionist became a class with levels, they lost all distinctiveness. This is especially true if you have a spontaneous arcane caster class like Sorcerer. If you want to play a psionist in my game, you pick an appropriate Sorcerer bloodline (subclass in 5e terms) and you pick spells with the [Psychic] tag and feats that enhance those spells. This avoids the problem of "Is psionics different than magic or not?" My answer is firmly on the side of "It's just magic.", which I feel is the correct answer both internally to a D&D setting and externally based on the real-world origin of the concepts.
Now, I don't hate the idea, I just find them redundant. I don't feel a need to have a class that is mechanically different but not distinctive. Typically though Psion classes are generic enough that they represent one of the two casters I might consider being the sole magic using class if I wanted to do a particular setting with a distinctive feel (the other is Shaman) and "There are no wizards or sorcerers or clerics" might be a fun homebrew setting. But I don't see a need for them otherwise.
Yaarel
He Mage
According to these definitions:
Is a summoner who summons an elemental to do elemental effects, a divine caster?
Celebrim
Legend
I have worked on such a system. Wizards in my game can theoretically cast or try to cast as many spells per day as they want and of any level they want. The spell slots are just a strict regimen that casters are strongly exhorted to adhere to if they don't want to die a particularly horrible death or permanently burn out their ability to cast magic. It's not very convenient to cast more spells than you your spell slots or higher-level spells than you know, and it probably will kill you within two or three attempts, but you can do it.
The short answer of how the system works is spell fumbles.
One of the most common spell fumbles is spell burn. This is when you accidently try to power a spell with your own life force and it starts sucking the soul out of your body to power itself. Normally you just burn off some XP, but it can drain levels or even kill you. If you die to spell burn, you immediately become a Spell Wight - a kind of undead where a living spell inhabits your body. You are also dead, dead, dead, no resurrection possible. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons it wouldn't be a good idea to try to force your apprentice to cast spells you are afraid to cast, like gods alone help you, Wish. There is a failed Wisdom check if there ever was one.
If you are casting a spell you don't have a slot for, you automatically take some level of spell burn even if you succeed. That power had to come from somewhere. If you fail by a little, you automatically take spell burn and automatically fumble. If you fail by a lot, luckily nothing happens.
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