Disappointed by movement

[Nahat Anoj]

So what happens when you try to push someone off a cliff? Do they get a saving throw?

If it's a PC, I would probably let them make a skill check of some kind to grab on to the side of the cliff. But for minion level monsters I'd probably let the PCs have their way - indeed, that somewhat reminds me of the scene in the Two Towers where Gimli and Aragorn fended off the hordes of Uruk Hai at the gates of Helm's Deep.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

So what happens when you try to push someone off a cliff? Do they get a saving throw?

I'm guessing that this would reference the climb or jump rules just as it does in 3E - if you fall off a ledge or miss a jump in 3E, you get a reflex save to grab on to something. I'd imagine that in 4E, you might get moved off the cliff, but get some sort of check to grab the ledge.

 

[Stormtalon]

I'm guessing that this would reference the climb or jump rules just as it does in 3E - if you fall off a ledge or miss a jump in 3E, you get a reflex save to grab on to something. I'd imagine that in 4E, you might get moved off the cliff, but get some sort of check to grab the ledge.

Depending on how you want to do it and whether or not you as a DM you want mere minions to make that reflex save, you could make it a static DC that happens to be somewhere above the minions' reflex defenses, and below the reflex defense of both the PCs and whatever "guest-star" bad guy you might have in the fight. That way they can toss minions off of the cliff like so many shrieking watermelons, but they and the *real* bad guy can grab on and dangle precariously for a bit.

Mmmm, dramatic!

 

[Toryx]

Actually, the new movement powers/ abilities are one of the things I really like. I like the idea of pushing people around, particularly with great blows. I like that fly is being replaced (as far as I can tell anyway) with short hops of teleportation. It'll add a challenging dynamic to the game that I'm looking forward to dealing with.

I'm not so thrilled about theoried or rumored powers that draw or pull enemies closer, but it's yet to be seen if those actually exist or not.

The push effects, however, really interest me. In any battle that I've ever watched or read about, there's always the point where the combat pushes the defender back under a hail of blows. Being able to actually do that in gameplay, and having the enemy (or my character for that matter) have to start getting worried about the cliff or river of fire behind me getting ever closer sounds pretty exciting to me, and far better than a Bull Rush only mechanic.

 

[Campbell]

So what happens when you try to push someone off a cliff? Do they get a saving throw?

I'd rule it as a Strength Attack vs. Reflex. On hit enemy grabs edge of cliff and the target saves each round on enemy's turn. Three saves means he falls down. Stomping on his fingers as a standard action means he falls down. When he falls down he dies...maybe.

On miss he manages to shift out of the way.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Other than Fey Step (which will not exist in my game except possibly as a paragon-tier option), I have no problem with all this movement. If anything, it's far more evocative of cinematic combat than 3e's current "stand still and whack your opponent repeatedly" paradigm. Combatants are supposed to move around the battlefield; it's why footwork and movement are so important in fencing, football, and a number of other combat-analogue sports. If 4e needs to use powers to accomplish this, I've no problem with it.

 

[davethegame]

Considering the number of enemies they're expecting a party to fight, one of the biggest issues for PCs is going to be battlefield control.

I have a feeling we're going to see the end of the 20' by 20' room, a swarm of Kobalds plus the PCs are going to fill that up right quick. Shoving people out of the way, preventing enemies from surrounding the Controllers, crowding and dividing enemies are probably going to be more of an issue in 4E combat.

As an example, when we were playing in the delve yesterday, an Otyugh popped out of a pile of garbage, and proceeded to mess up our Warlock pretty bad. The fighter drew it over near a pit. He tried to push it back, both because it might fall in the pit, and to keep it from being able to reach the wizard (me).

He then proceeded to roll poorly. Then our time was up.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Actually, the new movement powers/ abilities are one of the things I really like. I like the idea of pushing people around, particularly with great blows. I like that fly is being replaced (as far as I can tell anyway) with short hops of teleportation. It'll add a challenging dynamic to the game that I'm looking forward to dealing with.

That's an interesting point. I haven't been following closely. Is fly gone?

That said, I like the apparent dynamism, since it does fix the biggest problem with D&D to this point: that the most effective tactic is still dealing out gobs of hit points. However, I'm with some of the others in that really low level teleport effects are going to take a lot of getting used to. (If at all for me.)

 

[Aeolius]

That's an interesting point. I haven't been following closely. Is fly gone?

The DDI Virtual Tabletop has no z-axis, thus no flying, swimming, or variable-gravity planar travels - at least to start. Perhaps they wrote flying out of the game, to better match the MMORG... ::ahem:: ... I mean Virtual Tabletop.

...the rogue/fighter/et al can have the chance to chuck minions over the edge like so many screaming extras in an Indiana Jones movie....

Sorry, with no z-axis, they simply float in midair... no falling

 

[Hussar]

I thought most of the movement stuff was mostly pushing. Very little actual teleportation - other than the Eladrin that is.

As far as phalanx fighting goes, did you actually see that in play? Considering the usual group is 3-5 PC's, most of whom couldn't use armor and frequently couldn't use a sword or spear, how many phalanx formations did you see?

What I usually saw in most combats was the party ganging up on a creature, moving to flank it, beating it to death and then moving on to the next creature. It's pretty rare that I saw much more movement than that.