Discussion - LEW 4th Edition

[Rystil Arden]

Y'know, I wouldn't mind just starting work on "Fourth Age", even if it turned out that it didn't become the default setting for L4W. I think it's just a cool core idea we got going on right now.

A few quick ideas -

1) TEN CITY-STATES. five core, five peripheral. And then maybe GMs can add smaller city-states at their whim.

2) Large meta-plots. Becaue I think that brings out a living game's true potential, as opposed to "Unrelated adventures that are connected by the same characters" (although we'd have that, too!)

3) Throw in other mythologies, as opposed to just Greek. Hey, calling it simply "The Age of Mythology" or something, and throwing in mythical beings from other cultures could be pretty cool. Imagine if Athens and Sparta were city-states, as well as an Egyptian state, a Celtic state, etc...

4) Running with that, we could name our greek gods with other mythology names. I read this really neat anthropology article that states (and this is fairly obvious) that most of the mythologies of the old world riffed off each other, and that many thought "Hey, your Aphrodite is a lot like our Isis!". We could do something similar.

5) Keep that idea about a transitive plane on the oceans, meaning travel times are highly erratic. It fits a Greek game fairly well, anyways.

As someone who previously in this thread said that I hate small pantheons, even I think that doing #3 in the core area is going too far in the too-many-gods direction (and if you say that you'll fix this by restricting the number of gods per pantheon to the major ones, you have the worst of both worlds for me, IMO). Keeping other pantheons in for mystic faraway exotic locales is awesome. Putting in ten (or even three) different pantheons in the core starting area is too much. As to #4, I think we might as well keep the regular names, rathering than confusing things by using the identifications in other cultures.

I like #5. #2 is probably too unwieldy to do often and should be saved for special events, but should exist.

You'd want to be careful with #1--don't name them after real Greek city states (and the semi-silly 'let's just add the letter a and say it's a new name' doesn't fly with me either. Let people get creative here. Also, as someone who studied actual Greek history as well, it strikes me that your suggestions for city-states where you claimed you were patterning them after 'X' (frex Athens), were sometimes simultaneously a very cool idea for a D&D city-state and totally wrong about being patterned after that city-state. This is actually a good thing--you've sort of tapped into the collective imagination of many people about the Greek past, rather than the actual history (frex, your Athens idea is not even remotely similar to Athens, but the idea you have is still an awesome idea for a D&D city state)

 

[Rystil Arden]

And I suppose that most people would rather be (the equivalent of) Ulysses in the game instead of meeting him in the game.

I think there is little doubt that warforged will be in the Monster Manual (them being in the MM is a way to support Eberron from the get-go), the question is whether they are in the SRD. That's one of the reasons why I advocated closing the MM races from player characters earlier. They'd probably originally be a gift/creation of Hephaistos, who might have collaborated with other gods. Perhaps created before returning to Olympus?

Eladrin are the 'fey wizards,' essentially taking on a role similar to high elves in 3.X. There has been a few hints that the eladrin types that exist in 3.X might also exist in 4E, though it isn't clear how. Elves are essentially wood elves, and more worldly than the eladrin. If the wizardry link holds, eladrin might be lesser spirits akin to, say, muses or moirae, though other connections are possible, depending on how they are depicted in 4E.

Linking tieflings to the titans points to a likelyhood that the titans are also potential patrons for warlocks. Seems fitting for now, but is entering rulesy territory.

The "too greek" problem I can certainly see. Some possibilities are to use a mix between greek deities and new deities (especially since there may be some need to cover D&Disms), and regional flavor (farther reaches of the main continent might have completely different cultures, and if there are other continents, they certainly should), worshipping the gods under other names, or other gods completely.

Those are some great ideas--I agree with pretty much everything you say with only one exception:

The Moirae were extremely major, not lesser spirits (the Muses not as major, but still major). The lesser spirits were the Daimones (which are not demons, but fey, with Nymphs being the female Daimones). I still think that the Eladrin would be best identified with the children of those Daimones and mortals.

As to Warlock patrons--good idea. Again, I think we want the Protogenoi (which some people forget are different from the Titans) rather than the Titans just for flavour match. The Titans were mostly very similar to the Greek gods, just an older generation. The Protogenoi included primal forces that would make totally awesome Warlock concepts (Nyx (night) Erebos (mists of darkness), Gaia (earth), Okeanos (ocean), Khaos (void/chaos), Phusis (nature), Thesis (creation), Tartaros (the stormy pit of hell) ).

Anyways, Warforged as rare NPCs, special creations of Hephaestos (like Talos) == . Warforged as 'every other PC is a Warforged' == .

I agree with you about barring the MM to start and sticking with the PH.

 

[Knight Otu]

The Moirae were extremely major, not lesser spirits (the Muses not as major, but still major).

Bad wording on my part - I didn't mean that the Moirae or the Muses are the lesser spirits. I meant that the Eladrin could be the lesser spirits that have some connection to these greater spirits.

Anyways, Warforged as rare NPCs, special creations of Hephaestos (like Talos) == . Warforged as 'every other PC is a Warforged' == .

Aye.

 

[Wik]

Those are some great ideas--I agree with pretty much everything you say with only one exception:

The Moirae were extremely major, not lesser spirits (the Muses not as major, but still major). The lesser spirits were the Daimones (which are not demons, but fey, with Nymphs being the female Daimones). I still think that the Eladrin would be best identified with the children of those Daimones and mortals.

As to Warlock patrons--good idea. Again, I think we want the Protogenoi (which some people forget are different from the Titans) rather than the Titans just for flavour match. The Titans were mostly very similar to the Greek gods, just an older generation. The Protogenoi included primal forces that would make totally awesome Warlock concepts (Nyx (night) Erebos (mists of darkness), Gaia (earth), Okeanos (ocean), Khaos (void/chaos), Phusis (nature), Thesis (creation), Tartaros (the stormy pit of hell) ).

Anyways, Warforged as rare NPCs, special creations of Hephaestos (like Talos) == . Warforged as 'every other PC is a Warforged' == .

I agree with you about barring the MM to start and sticking with the PH.

God, the warforged abundance in Eberron really ticks me off. Every other PC is a 'forged or a changeling. Tres. Annoying.

And don't mind shooting down my ideas, RA - I pretty much toss them out there without any forethought on whether or not they actually work, because some of them will find traction (I like to collaborate on things). Most of your points make perfect sense to me.

One thing about naming the cities, though - personally, one thing I *hate* is when a fantastic place is obviosly modelled after a real place, yet has a different name style. If, for example, "Cicerai" is really just Athens, it's one "step" for the people playing the game, and in time, they'll just make the translation anyways.

Personally, I'd like to allude to the fact that this place is Athens - perhaps by keeping the first three letters, or something. Athica, Sparsus, Corintas, etc.

Same thing bothers me about months. Most players just don't want to have to relearn the month names for their game, but also find that "January" really breaks the mode. But they have no problem knowing that "Janos" is still the first month of the year.

If that makes any sense.

 

[Wik]

P.S. You have a big problem ahead of you, RA. As someone who really likes Greek Mythology, you're going to have to let a lot of what you know go. I'm an anthropology/Archaeology student, and I love Mesopotamia - so you can guess how angry I get when I see game settings based on mesopotamia.

 

[Rystil Arden]

God, the warforged abundance in Eberron really ticks me off. Every other PC is a 'forged or a changeling. Tres. Annoying.

And don't mind shooting down my ideas, RA - I pretty much toss them out there without any forethought on whether or not they actually work, because some of them will find traction (I like to collaborate on things). Most of your points make perfect sense to me.

One thing about naming the cities, though - personally, one thing I *hate* is when a fantastic place is obviosly modelled after a real place, yet has a different name style. If, for example, "Cicerai" is really just Athens, it's one "step" for the people playing the game, and in time, they'll just make the translation anyways.

Personally, I'd like to allude to the fact that this place is Athens - perhaps by keeping the first three letters, or something. Athica, Sparsus, Corintas, etc.

Same thing bothers me about months. Most players just don't want to have to relearn the month names for their game, but also find that "January" really breaks the mode. But they have no problem knowing that "Janos" is still the first month of the year.

If that makes any sense.

You would like my Praetorian Empire god names, I think (the Praetorian Empire is part of my Neospelljamming setting. They are one age after the standard Greek/Roman age, which has led to the rise of Myneria, Golden Empress of the Gods and goddess of war, wisdom, and strategy, and the 'New Gods'. Other deities include Vynerys, goddess of Love and Beauty. Then (as I'm about to suggest in my next section for us to do), sometimes I just used obscure titles or names (Mulcyber the god of the forge, Kthonia, goddess of the Underworld).

As to the city states, I don't really like those particular suggested names. The good news is that of your three ideas so far, only Sparta is clearly connected to an actual historical city-state. Call it Lakedaemonia (or Lakonia is shorter) and you're using a real-world alternate name for Sparta. The other two ideas are not clearly patterned after Athens or Corinth (the Athens idea is true of no Greek city-state, and the Corinth idea could have been several, including Athens, actually), so we can name them anything at all.

 

[Rystil Arden]

P.S. You have a big problem ahead of you, RA. As someone who really likes Greek Mythology, you're going to have to let a lot of what you know go. I'm an anthropology/Archaeology student, and I love Mesopotamia - so you can guess how angry I get when I see game settings based on mesopotamia.

I don't consider it a problem--I love mixing up and extrapolating. It does mean that people who stomp around randomly with no care are going to get a 'Lame' reaction from me until they get used to the idea of careful integration, but nobody so far has been like that anyway.

When I made the Praetorian remix and changed the Roman archetype dramatically, it was a joy, not a pain. I got to think about the way that the deific shifts mirrored and reflected real-world social, cultural, and political breakthroughs (Myneria's predominance corresponded to the emergence of a genetically superior race of Praetorians called the 'Archons', all female, which threw the patriarchal and corrupt Praetorian Republic for a loop until one powerful Archon managed to instigate a coup and proclaim herself the Empress, and there's more to it than that, but the point is that it was fun and exciting to make changes ).

If you're into Mesopotamian myth, you can commiserate with me, then, in one of the things in trivia/Quizbowl circuits that causing me to go into a blind fury more than anything else: When they say 'Blah blah blah, name this Sumerian goddess...' and their answer is Ishtar. NO!!! IT'S INANNA! BLAAAARGH!!!!!!

 

[Rystil Arden]

Bad wording on my part - I didn't mean that the Moirae or the Muses are the lesser spirits. I meant that the Eladrin could be the lesser spirits that have some connection to these greater spirits.


Aye.

Some connection could mean that they are children of Daimones, as I suggested. Orpheus, son of the Muse Calliope, could have been an Eladrin, hence his magically powerful talents.

Now that I understand what you meant, I think I will change my mind and instead agree with everything you said.

 

[Wik]

If you're into Mesopotamian myth, you can commiserate with me, then, in one of the things in trivia/Quizbowl circuits that causing me to go into a blind fury more than anything else: When they say 'Blah blah blah, name this Sumerian goddess...' and their answer is Ishtar. NO!!! IT'S INANNA! BLAAAARGH!!!!!!

yeah, that's a big pet peeve. Or Marduk instead of Anu, etc. You gotta love linguistics, eh?

 

[Wik]

As to the city states, I don't really like those particular suggested names. The good news is that of your three ideas so far, only Sparta is clearly connected to an actual historical city-state. Call it Lakedaemonia (or Lakonia is shorter) and you're using a real-world alternate name for Sparta. The other two ideas are not clearly patterned after Athens or Corinth (the Athens idea is true of no Greek city-state, and the Corinth idea could have been several, including Athens, actually), so we can name them anything at all.

Ha, fair enough. What I know of Ancient Greece is actually pretty limiting - God names, some basic history, and whatnot. Though I always got the idea that Corinth was one of the wealthier cities, Athens had something sort of resembling Democracy (a citizens council, or something silly), and Delphi certainly had the Oracle.

If we do choose random names for the cities, there needs to be a way to say, very quickly, that 'City A is a militaristic city" and "City B likes magic". Something to integrate Players into the plot.

I'm curious, though - what is it that puts you against the large meta-plot idea? I personally think it's a possibility, and something that could be a lot of fun, if the judges (whoever they may be) put some work into it.