Discussion on +x magic items

[RangerWickett]

Why do you want to make D&D into Conan if you've already got Conan? So the people who want what they know from D&D don't have that option anymore? So they can pick Conan or Dungeons & Cimmerians?

Better to have D&D for x-type adventures, Conan for y-type adventures, RIFTS for z-type adventures, etc, et al, blah blah blah.

If there is a problem with D&D right now, to me, it's that it doesn't know what it wants to be. Is it designed for a certain type of adventuring (requiring x magic items at certain levels, dungeon crawling) or is it supposed to be a tool box game as some like to think? Even though I have no plans to switch, I appreciate that what I've read about 4E indicates they are trying to deal with this - by tightening the focus and moving further away from being a tool box (which isn't the direction I would go, but at least it's a direction).

Well, Conan's got its problems too. No magic, for one.

I don't want D&D to be like Conan. What I'm saying is, it is possible for a fantasy adventure game to work without magic items. So, given the hassle that certain types of items cause, we should at least consider a version of the game that has no magic items.

It can still have magic, though, because at any given power tier (heroic, paragon, epic), the non-spellcasting classes will still have stuff they can do to compete with spellcasters of those levels. At least, they would in the version I'm imagining.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Hehe. Only six now. But those rings last forever. Figure one ring gets made every few years (I mean, it takes 2 days of work; you gotta figure a priest will pop one out to help a holy warrior every once in a while), and in a setting with a history stretching back a thousand centuries, that's a lot of +1 rings.

Well, a cleric has to have the right feat -- how many take Forge Ring upon hitting 12th, and how many take, say, Quicken Spell? It didn't seem to me that there'd be many ring-crafters, but as you say they do last a long time and many campaigns do have a long backstory.

 

[delericho]

One other thing that can be done both to limit the Christmas Tree Effect and the transferrence of weak items from one character to another is to tie the magic items to the character though some sort of character-based resource, similar to the Attuned Essence costs used by Exalted.

So, perhaps a 12th level character can attune 24 points worth of magic items. He can carry as many others as he wants... but they won't provide him with any benefit.

 

[Ifurita'sFan]

What I'm trying to say is that if you automatically get cool special abilities as you level, you won't need to hand out magic items to make players happy. They'll still get cool powers, only now they're non-transferable.

This is one of my beefs with 3.x and now 4.x edition.

Under 1st and 2nd edition...forcing the extra special neato powers that the characters acquire into having to be from magic items serves as a pressure valve for rebalancing a campaign if it's needed.

PCs getting too powerful for your world? Have those items get confiscated, stolen, outlawed, or flat out destroyed in some way that takes them from the character. Viola... character has had those powers trimmed away, taken away , or whatever without maiming the character.

Case in point, I was involved in a campaign world where our characters visited a citystate we'd heard so much about. There was a posted set of laws and restrictions for arms and armor.

One of those restrictions was that hand weapons would get a peace bond put on them (a ribbon with a wax seal ) If that seal was broken it was a crime (unless there was just cause shown) Magical armor was allowed up to chain, but all plate and the like were reserved to nobility or required a special permit and drew attention. But the one that pulled everyone up short was the outright banning of vorpal and sharpness weapons under penalty of death.

It seemed the king of that city state had nearly met his end at the hands of an assassin who used a vorpal weapon. (This was back when it wasn't a DC resistance... you hit a number on the roll... you took a head or limb end of story) This created vast consternation for one of the fighters of the group because he was 10th level and had one. The thing is... it made logical sense for the ban, but it stripped a power in a way that didn't violate reason or the rules.

Taking someone's power attack, or whirlwind attack in the same manner isn't possible or reasonable.

With feats and such WotC just introduced what's called a "layer of obfuscation" to that ability of the DM. Meaning that the powers are now a mystical magical aura of nebulous origin that once acquired cannot be removed, short of maiming the character physically so that they can no longer be performed, or taking levels... So you can't really take them away because the characters now have XYZ power... and it's in the rules, and they can always reacquire it.

1st and 2nd edition didn't have this problem. You could prune back characters as needed, now feats give so many freaking bonuses that it reduces the value of magical items to more or less unimportant trinkets in many cases.

If Conan doesn't need magic items, why does D&D?

With the direction that the game is taking... that soon won't be an issue. As magic items serve to be less and less a necessity or as other new feats offer options to replace the powers of magic items, they will likely fade away as a feature of the game

 

[jodyjohnson]

I wouldn't mind seeing weapons that grant Weapon Focus as a +1 replacement (+1/0).

Then Focus and Spec as a +2 (+1/+2), Gtr Focus and Spec as a +3ish (+2/+2), Gtr Focus and Greater Spec as a +4ish equivalent (+2/+4) and then Gtr Focus, Gtr Spec and Weapon Mastery as the ultimate at +5 (+4/+6).

But if you get the same featish abilities naturally you would branch into variety in weapon choice opposed to just investing in the pluses. Instead of '5' level of plus you use a weapon with 5 levels of special abilities.

Similar to now where you get Improved Crit as a feat or with Keen/Impact as a weapon ability. But once you have IMproved Crit then a Keen weapon is redundant.

 

[VirgilCaine]

"I'm a tough-as-nails 10th level fighter. I have a magic sword that I drew from the clutches of a petrified saint, and I used it to slay the necromancer that destroyed my village and set me on the path of a hero.

"Oh, you're selling plus-two swords? Well sure, I'll take one. Can I trade in this piece of junk?"

Gee, I wonder where the saint's actual, much more magical sword would be...out in the world, being used to fight evil, perhaps?

Also, if he's a 10th level fighter, he should have traded up to something better (or had the saint's blade further prayed over) two or three levels ago.

Hehe. Only six now. But those rings last forever. Figure one ring gets made every few years (I mean, it takes 2 days of work; you gotta figure a priest will pop one out to help a holy warrior every once in a while), and in a setting with a history stretching back a thousand centuries, that's a lot of +1 rings.

Wow, this is amazing.

Someone actually gets it!

Magic items don't wear out!

The king doesn't need to buy his own magic items, they're all royal heirlooms!

Whee!

 

[Gundark]

Well, here's the thing.

This is fantasy. people like having magic items. Either your game is balanced assuming you don't have them, and a character who has them will be comparatively overpowered, or the game is balanced assumes they are there, and then there is the appearance of needing them.

Honestly, is should not matter which is chosen as the nominal case - the problem is solved by giving DMs good guidelines for dealing with the other case.

I have a moderate dislike for +X items simply because they are... boring. Undramatic. Uncinematic. The have no style, in and of themselves.

I agree a lot with Umbran

I like having magic items in the game. I think that the "magic sword" or "magic staff" should exist. However...I really hated the character packing the magic head piece, cape, weapon, rings, neck piece, boots and belt that we saw in 3.x, and espically hated how they were "needed"

IMHO I would like 4e to be perfectly playable without magic items (from level 1-30), but however I would want it to be okay if they are introduced in play.

If at level x a certain # of items is expected then I'm going to be less excited about that. I don't remember the quote but some designer used the term "charlie brown christmas tree"

 

[tecnowraith]

Ok not sure if this has been said yet what does this for the Artificer in Eberron where the whole is based around Magic items? How will this change the class for the good or the bad?

 

[Ifurita'sFan]

IMHO I would like 4e to be perfectly playable without magic items (from level 1-30), but however I would want it to be okay if they are introduced in play.

If at level x a certain # of items is expected then I'm going to be less excited about that. I don't remember the quote but some designer used the term "charlie brown christmas tree"

magic has never been manditory (save the spell casing of mages and clerics) in the system. And you can always restrict character classes for that.

Played in a super magic poor campaign once. Every player rolled a percentage dice. If you scored under 5% you had "magic" and could become a mage. If you didn't... you were stuck... no magic for you.

It was actually hellaciously cool.

 

[AllisterH]

1st and 2nd edition didn't have this problem. You could prune back characters as needed, now feats give so many freaking bonuses that it reduces the value of magical items to more or less unimportant trinkets in many cases.

Er, this isn't true in any form. Let's look at the classic party. Sure, you could take away the magic items from a mid to high level party, but the only one really screwed was the fighter and thief. All you did was just inconvenience the mage and cleric. Why do you think that Mord's Disjunction has always been considered more of a Fighter bane than a wizard bane.

The problem I have with this discussion is nobody EVER asks the question "Well, what about the wizards/clerics?"

Unless WOTC ALSO gets rid of the magical spells that boost stats/saves/attacks or severely nerfs them, all you're doing is screwing over the mundane classes.

Simply put, exactly what do people want magic in the hands of the PC in the form of their class abilities to be able to do?