Discussion on +x magic items

[RangerWickett]

Rock - Paper - Scissors.

Wizard beats Fighter beats Cleric beats Wizard.

Or rather Combo beats Aggro beats Control beats Combo.

The wizard should be able to set up some awesomely powerful magic if he gets the time, and should be able to beat the snot out of a fighter if the fighter doesn't see it coming.

The wizard however is vulnerable to the cleric (or whatever we're calling this class), who has defenses against magic, and who can say, "Sorry mage, but your vile sorcery cannot harm me." Then the cleric kills the wizard the conventional way.

The cleric, however, only really has defenses against magic. Against a warrior, well, he's just a crappier warrior.

Now, I'm not sure how this fits into the rest of the topic of this thread, but I had the idea.

 

[bgaesop]

Where do all you people hide, and why haven't you found a system that's a better match for your tastes than D&D?

I for one have, it's called Iron Heroes. I still like low magic rather than no magic, but it's an excellent system for eliminating the need to have a thousand +x items on you at any given time..

Here's the sort of thing I'd like to see:

Flame Tongue [Fire]
This sword glows with a dull red heat. It sheds light like a torch, and may be used to start fires, though the heat never harms its wielder or his equipment.
You may use this sword as the Focus for any spell with the [Fire] descriptor.
When you invest (some daily resource like an Action Point) in the sword, it bursts into flame, and inflicts +1d6 Fire damage with each blow (for some duration).
When striking an undead foe, the Flame Tongue deals extra fire damage equal to your BAB.
Hardness: 20; HP: 80

Cheers, -- N

I rather like this.

I can also appreciate magic items, even generic +x ones, if they're not as crazy common as they are in 3.x. I remember running a rogue that went several levels without a single magic item and then eventually managed to acquire, as a side-quest I did one on one with the DM, an Amulet of Protection (+1 to all my saves). From then on I included little roleplaying bits about the rogue fingering it in his pocket when he was planning something, putting it on when he was particularly nervous, leaving it alone when he was really confident in a course of action, things like that. The fighter did similar things with fiddling with the hilt of his magic sword. If I'd just grabbed it from a vendor or it was one of a dozen pieces of treasure I sorted through and chose my pick of at the end of a dungeon I wouldn't have appreciated it nearly as much, and that's the main thing I want to avoid.

The cleric, however, only really has defenses against magic. Against a warrior, well, he's just a crappier warrior.

I'm rather confused by all this. There's really no reasonable way a DnD cleric could lose to a DnD fighter, no matter who has what items.

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm rather confused by all this. There's really no reasonable way a DnD cleric could lose to a DnD fighter, no matter who has what items.

I'm talking of a hypothetical game that I would like to exist, not the current rules. In said hypothetical game, aggro beats control beats combo beats aggro. Clerics would not be designed for dealing out lots of damage.

 

[Lanefan]

A number of thoughts on reading all this...in no particular order:

1. Weapons whose to-hit bonus is different than their damage bonus e.g. +2/+0 or +1/+5 are something I've had in my games for years and years. I once had someone claim a sword out of treasury that, while not cursed, was +1/-1...used it for quite some time until he finally realized it wasn't quite laying the smackdown he thought it was.

2. Items that boost stats are *far* too common in 3e. That, and the iconic items that do boost stats e.g. Girdle of Giant Strength should boost the stat to a set number e.g. 30 (in 3e terms) rather than just modify the wearer's original stat by a '+'. Needless to say, such items should also be rare and-or extremely costly.

3. I'm not at all sure I'm sold on the idea of weapons or items that get better as a character advances in level. For one thing, if a character is carrying a few such things the J-curve on their total abilities as they advance just got a lot steeper. Another issue is that items don't always stay with the same owner...a sword that gives +3-flaming to the 10th-level foe using it against the party but only gives +1 to the 4th-level PC that loots the corpse would really suck! I have no problem at all, however, with items useable only by certain classes, races, or alignments.

4. Players like finding new stuff. The trick is to somehow cycle through the old stuff so it doesn't just accumulate...the answer here, I think, lies in making magic items easier to break or destroy; kind of an easy come, easy go philosophy. (says he, whose 3rd-level party just lost half its total magic last session from a wild magic surge...)

5. Tying powers to a weapon's '+' is not the way to go. I'd far rather allow even a +0 weapon to have some spectacular power and also allow a +5 weapon to do nothing else at all, than only allow the +5's to get the spectacular powers. Hell, +5 *is* spectacular, where I come from!

6. 3e added lots of new mechanics to combat but really missed the boat on designing items to take advantage of those. Examples: "Painbringer", a sword +0 that bypasses any and all DR; or "Opportunist", an axe +1 that will never miss when swung as an attack of opportunity; or "Flankenstein", a shield +0 that emits odd sounds in battle such that any opponent of its wielder is considered flanked even when such is not the case or is otherwise illegal. Stuff like that. Let's hope 4e takes advantage of its own mechanics with its magic.

Lanefan

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If there are only +X Swords, Armor and Wands/Staffs/Orbs, maybe the christmas tree will really be gone. If there aren't a dozens of items each character needs, but just 2-3, it might be okay.

All other items are optional. Nice to have, maybe even powerful, but they don't make you better at your core abilities.
They grant you options (climbing a 90° wall, flying, breathing under water, turning invisble, allow planeshifting or scrying) and they will be cool.

But if they don't fit in the DM's campaign/adventure, they're not given out, and there is no need for the Magic Mart, except for getting +X weapons/armor/wand/staffs/orb. (These might be the "new Big Five", but the latter 3 are only required for spellcasters, and even they will probably need only one of them).

 

[Nifft]

2. Items that boost stats are *far* too common in 3e. That, and the iconic items that do boost stats e.g. Girdle of Giant Strength should boost the stat to a set number e.g. 30 (in 3e terms) rather than just modify the wearer's original stat by a '+'. Needless to say, such items should also be rare and-or extremely costly.

Just wanted to address this one quickly. Look at the Druid's Wildshape over the past few years, if you want to see how "replaces stats" interacts with optimization. I think you'll see worse cheese if you allow stat replacement than augmentation.

I'm of the opinion that stats shouldn't be augmentable by items in a permanent way. I'd rather see low-duration spells & charged items -- or hell, even drugs with terrible side effects and withdrawal symptoms -- but my favorite would be if stats were fairly stable, and magic gave you more options rather than just bigger bonuses*.

Cheers, -- N

*) And yes, I do realize that there are times when quantity = quality, such as how a higher carrying capacity does indeed expand your options, but IMHO it would be better to give a specific new option than to boost Strength. For example, turning the target into a quadruped. That's cool, has some interesting drawbacks, and isn't going to add directly to damage.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Just wanted to address this one quickly. Look at the Druid's Wildshape over the past few years, if you want to see how "replaces stats" interacts with optimization. I think you'll see worse cheese if you allow stat replacement than augmentation.

I think the best way might be to make a "limited augmentation". You get a +6 bonus to your Strength, but not beyond 18. If you already have the strength of a Giant (even if a weak one), well, why should a Belt of Giant Strength help you anyway? But you also don't want only the replacement of stats, because you might end up with combat-optimized high level fighters that eschew a natural high strength score with a Belt of Giant Strength.

Only characters that are typically weak in such an ability will desperately want it. And if the fighter is strength-drained/damaged, he can use the belt as his back-up.

 

[delericho]

I quite like the idea someone posted up thread for these items:

Gauntlets of Ogre Power: This allows the character to wield weapons one size category larger than himself without penalty. This does not stack with Powerful Build, Monkey Grip, Belts of Giant Strength, or any other similar effects.

Belt of Hill Giant's Strength: This allows the character to wield weapons one size category larger than himself without penalty. This does not stack with Powerful Build, Monkey Grip, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, or any other similar effects. In addition, the character can throw small boulders. A small boulder is considered a Simple weapon, doing 3d10 Bludgeoning damage, with a range increment of 30 ft., and a critical modifier of x2.

Belt of Stone Giant's Strength: This allows the character to wield weapons two size categories larger than himself without penalty. This does not stack with Powerful Build, Monkey Grip, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, or any other similar effects. In addition, the character can throw medium boulders. A medium boulder is considered a Simple weapon, doing 4d10 Bludgeoning damage, with a range increment of 30 ft., and a critical modifier of x2.

Belt of Fire Giant's Strength: This allows the character to wield weapons two size categories larger than himself without penalty. This does not stack with Powerful Build, Monkey Grip, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, or any other similar effects. In addition, the character can throw large boulders. A large boulder is considered a Simple weapon, doing 5d10 Bludgeoning damage, with a range increment of 30 ft., and a critical modifier of x2.

Or something like that. Basically, it gives the character some of the qualities associated with "Giant's Strength" without directly boosting the character's strength.

(Note that the numbers came out of slightly overweight air, and without reference to the SRD, so would clearly need tweaked.)

 

[Kmart Kommando]

I for one have, it's called Iron Heroes. I still like low magic rather than no magic, but it's an excellent system for eliminating the need to have a thousand +x items on you at any given time..

I love Iron Heroes. I'm running a game now, and no one has magic items (except the odd healing potion, the module is pretty brutal), and I can still throw magic against them and no one complains. Openly, at least. They still want phat lewt though. If I give them nice stuff, they'll get mad when I break it.
Even revamped the Arcanist with some of the new Spiritualist class's features and made it moderately reasonable to take a level or 3 of Arcanist to suit the campaign, but so far no takers.
Just wish I could play in a game instead of run one. Or both, my combats have much more imagination than any D&D game I've been in. More options too.

 

[The Human Target]

Why does WotC think the game needs +x items at all? Let's compare the game with them and the game without them, and see which is more interesting.

Kill monsters, take their money, buy ale and whores and ship passage to more adventure. Hire armies, live in the lap of luxury, acquire the finest things the markets of the world has to offer. Drugs, secrets, territory, bards to sing of your heroism, temples to honor your god, loyal servants who will assassinate those who stand against you.

Kill monsters, take their stuff, and buy cool things, not +1 gear.

A game should be rich enough that you can buy things other than stuff with which to kill more things. You'll have more powers of your own that are interesting and cool in 4e, so you shouldn't need as much magic gear. Nobody gives a damn about what boots a hero wears.

The "awesome loot as reward" component of the game could be replaced with some other reward that doesn't require tons of magic doodads. I've been playing a Conan game for a few months, and the one magic item we got was cursed! I haven't cared, because I've been having so much fun just 'killing things' (and especially because the things weren't just random, but were ***holes who needed a good killin') that I haven't even noticed there isn't much stuff to be taken.

I follow this train of thought.

I'd much rather have a character whose only magic items are a troll gut rope and a silver raven figurine of wondrous power than one with +Whateva items out the rear.