D&D 5E (2014) Divine Smite CRITITAL HIT

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Yep paladins are borderline Op in 5e.

Nah, paladins are in line with everything else - it's just that 5th edition has a naturally higher power-scale than some folks expect, and it manages to only get noticed in places those folks aren't expecting to see power of a not-actually-any-better-than-what-other-classes-have-had-for-decades nature.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Well all I can say is the paladin's extreme burst is unbalancing in my game. So I have moderated it some, and it works better for my table.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Fluff isnt rules, and the players handbook is written from a good/neutral perspective. However the Oath of Vengeance pretty much reads straight up evil... I dont actually think you can be a good paladin of Vengeance with it's focus on "ends justify the means" methods of killing a baby to stop a demon or what not. 4E was good in that it's "holy warriors" could be of any god, and there were powers to match. I ran a 4E game set in Golarion, and one of the PC's was a Chelish Hellknight Paladin. Worked great!

It reads more neutral to me. I don't seeing it as necessitating that they will use any means to justify their particular ends. While they definitely do have an "ends justifies the means" philosophy, it also sounds like there are possibly limits--and they also commit to being responsible for fixing any problems caused by their own failures and negligence.

Again, its fine to alter fluff (I do), I just tend to keep it by the book during discussion to avoid misunderstanding, and I didn't want less experienced players showing up to my game wanting to play a Bane paladin of vengeance and believing the book says that works well.

 

[Gladius Legis]

The idea that the Paladin in general, or saving a Smite for a crit, is overpowered is quite laughable.

But I guess when you've had the immediate two prior editions of D&D in which Paladins were about as incompetent and poorly designed as a class could get, 5e's Paladin being actually competent and very well designed might come as a bit of a system shock to some.

As for saving a Smite for a crit, honestly, in my experience I've done better just Smiting in the first round, crit or not. Get at least some of that burst damage while you can, even if it's not the big crit damage.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The idea that the Paladin in general, or saving a Smite for a crit, is overpowered is quite laughable.

But I guess when you've had the immediate two prior editions of D&D in which Paladins were about as incompetent and poorly designed as a class could get, 5e's Paladin being actually competent and very well designed might come as a bit of a system shock to some.

As for saving a Smite for a crit, honestly, in my experience I've done better just Smiting in the first round, crit or not. Get at least some of that burst damage while you can, even if it's not the big crit damage.

Paladin's flat out crap over the concept of bounded accuracy in terms of saving throws. Adding 2-5 on saving throws, that stacks with Bless, should have never made it past the drawing board. I have definitely found Paladins to be overpowered, or at the very least at the top of the non-pure caster heap. Their offense outstrips rangers, who get less defensive measures. Rangers get a small boost in exploration, if the party bothers to deal with it. Paladins get social, and since their social stat ALSO improves their combat, they tend to excel more in those two arenas than the ranger will in theirs.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Paladin's flat out crap over the concept of bounded accuracy in terms of saving throws. Adding 2-5 on saving throws, that stacks with Bless, should have never made it past the drawing board.

In most cases, that isn't going to result in saving throws being much better than the Monk's proficiency in all saves, if at all.

Charisma save is about the only save the Paladin totally rocks at, and of course we know how (not) often those come up. WIS save is likely to be about that of a Cleric or Monk, since Paladins tend to have average WIS, making CHA simply make up for that. Other than that, Resilient (CON) typically gives the Paladin the best save there, but that uses up a feat, so there's a tradeoff. And a typical Paladin isn't going to get CON above 16, if even that high.

Hardly overpowered. Perfectly fine.

I have definitely found Paladins to be overpowered, or at the very least at the top of the non-pure caster heap. Their offense outstrips rangers, who get less defensive measures. Rangers get a small boost in exploration, if the party bothers to deal with it. Paladins get social, and since their social stat ALSO improves their combat, they tend to excel more in those two arenas than the ranger will in theirs.

You're comparing the Paladin to a class that is almost universally agreed upon to not only be the weakest mechanically, but easily the most poorly designed? So much so that they're even trying to come up with an alternative version of that class and previewed it in Unearthed Arcana recently?

I'd say the problem in this comparison is the Ranger, not the Paladin.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

In most cases, that isn't going to result in saving throws being much better than the Monk's proficiency in all saves, if at all.

Charisma save is about the only save the Paladin totally rocks at, and of course we know how (not) often those come up. WIS save is likely to be about that of a Cleric or Monk, since Paladins tend to have average WIS, making CHA simply make up for that. Other than that, Resilient (CON) typically gives the Paladin the best save there, but that uses up a feat, so there's a tradeoff. And a typical Paladin isn't going to get CON above 16, if even that high.

Hardly overpowered. Perfectly fine.

Not really. The paladin in my game started with 2 18's. Rolled in ORDER. So he's adding 5 to everyone's saves in a 10 radius, which in a dungeon, usually means the entire party. Oh, he also gives them resistance to all spell damage. Sorry, that's flat out busted. 5E did away with massive bonuses, and MM DC's are just pathetic. A bonus like that has no place in the game as written.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Not really. The paladin in my game started with 2 18's. Rolled in ORDER. So he's adding 5 to everyone's saves in a 10 radius, which in a dungeon, usually means the entire party. Oh, he also gives them resistance to all spell damage. Sorry, that's flat out busted. 5E did away with massive bonuses, and MM DC's are just pathetic. A bonus like that has no place in the game as written.

You get lucky and roll two 18s, the mathematical chances of which are extremely low, and you're framing that as an example of why the class is overpowered? Your logic is extremely flawed.

You're also acting like Aura of Protection is the only thing in 5e ever that stretches the typical range of bounded accuracy.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

You get lucky and roll two 18s, the mathematical chances of which are extremely low, and you're framing that as an example of why the class is overpowered? Your logic is extremely flawed.

You're also acting like Aura of Protection is the only thing in 5e ever that stretches the typical range of bounded accuracy.

Even with a 16 charisma, its entirely inappropriate for this edition. As it stands, Bless wrecks the system, and this stacks with it, and is always on. Sorry, there's no defending this, when it's on a class with that much other defensive power AND good offense. You compared it to the monk, but it's far better than that, as it's an aura and stacks with proficiency. The monk ability also comes 8 levels later, and frankly the monk is a much worse class than the paladin.

 

[Gladius Legis]

As it stands, Bless wrecks the system,

Hyperbole like this makes it very hard to take you seriously.

You compared it to the monk, but it's far better than that, as it's an aura and stacks with proficiency. The monk ability also comes 8 levels later, and frankly the monk is a much worse class than the paladin.

And I already demonstrated how the only saves on the Paladin that typically wind up better are Charisma (very rare save) and Constitution (and that one only with a feat).

10 feet radius on aura ... yeah, good if you're in a dungeon and you thus have no choice but to clump together. In more open areas than that, the aura becomes pretty situational as far as whether it helps your entire party. 30' aura doesn't come until Lv. 18.

Monks can stunlock an enemy. That's pretty darn good. I'm inclined to agree the Paladin is a stronger overall package, but it's not like the Monk is useless by comparison.