Divine sorcerer? - balance when changing spell lists

[Driddle]

Picked up a copy of the Dragonlance campaign setting book at the store today. Good stuff. Was particularly interested in the mystic class and how it compares with the sorcerer. Your thoughts, please?

The spell knowledge and casting numbers are basically the same per level. So the differences beyond that make me wonder about balance -- and how you'd work it out in your own non-Dragonlance campaign if you were modifying the sorcerer class yourself. ... First, for example, the divine sorcerer (aka "mystic") loses his familiar but gains a single domain ability. Seems fair.

But then it gets a little wonky. Our mystic still gets the cleric BAB progression (up to +15) instead of the sorcerer (+10 at 20th level) progression. The mystic gains an extra known spell per level. He gets slightly better martial proficiencies. And better saves.

So I guess my question comes back to a core issue that's probably been discussed many times before: is the wizard/sorcerer spell list actually so much more versatile and powerful than the cleric's spell options? Because that would seem to be the main reason the proposed divine mystic gets more stuff than the sorcerer, spell numbers being equal.

 

[Dragonhelm]

I have a mystic in my game, and I don't see any power issues. Really, if you compare the mystic to the cleric, it's a little underpowered, especially in terms of armor/weapons and the lack of turning undead (unless you have the sun domain).

One thing to note from a role-playing perspective is that a domain can be seen as a representation of a mystic's inner spiritual self. I find that a mystic's domain helps to shape the character's personality.

Anyway, that's my two steel. I think the mystic is great, and I'd not only use it for Dragonlance, but other worlds as well (including as a replacement for the cleric in Dark Sun!).

 

[Driddle]

I have a mystic in my game, and I don't see any power issues. Really, if you compare the mystic to the cleric, it's a little underpowered, especially in terms of armor/weapons and the lack of turning undead ...

That's a fine perspective.
But I'm interested in the comparison between divine and arcane in this case.

 

[Screamwhip]

I think the major difference is that the Cleric list is designed with versatility in mind. Most of the various remedies a Divine caster is expected to be able to call on, as well as all of the differing levels of healing available, are represented by individual spells.

A Mystic, with the limited knowledge available to him, must either abandon the healer role, suffer with very limited capability in that regard, or spend most of his spells on it.

Plus, Divine magic is more situational that Arcane. It often provides curing, prtoection, and counters, whereas Arcane provides general adventuring utility and attacks. A Cleric is able to recast his role based on what adventuring environment he is in and an Arcane caster can be certain that his damage and utility spells will find some use. Without the ability to call up what spells are needed, the Mystic suffers with a burden of spells that are not always needed and a lack of needed spells to counter specific issues.

The Mystic in my group was often frustrated that the Divine spells so often were either only really good in one specific circumstance or to fulfill one specific need and found himself both envying our Clerics ability to change his selection of spells each day and our Sorcerer's raw power and general utility.

If you have a very strong character concept, the Mystic can easily give a nice focussed set of abilities, but he will be lacking in capability to carry out the full dungeon role expected of a Cleric.

My recommendation is to give the Mystic spontaneous casting of healing spells like the Cleric has. That way, the Mystic can fill at least the healing role of the Cleric without commiting so much of his limited spells know to it. This fix worked well for my group.

 

[Driddle]

OK, good observations. As you point out, the mystic -- as a reduced cleric -- needs something of a boost to make him a more useful component of the adventuring group when compared with the original clerical model ....

I think the major difference is that the Cleric list is designed with versatility in mind. Most of the various remedies a Divine caster is expected to be able to call on, as well as all of the differing levels of healing available, are represented by individual spells.

A Mystic, with the limited knowledge available to him, must either abandon the healer role, suffer with very limited capability in that regard, or spend most of his spells on it.

But on this point, I'd like to argue a bit more for clarity and conversation's sake...

Plus, Divine magic is more situational that Arcane. It often provides curing, prtoection, and counters, whereas Arcane provides general adventuring utility and attacks. A Cleric is able to recast his role based on what adventuring environment he is in and an Arcane caster can be certain that his damage and utility spells will find some use. Without the ability to call up what spells are needed, the Mystic suffers with a burden of spells that are not always needed and a lack of needed spells to counter specific issues.

The Mystic in my group was often frustrated that the Divine spells so often were either only really good in one specific circumstance or to fulfill one specific need and found himself both envying our Clerics ability to change his selection of spells each day and our Sorcerer's raw power and general utility.

I'm not so sure I appreciate the sorcerer's "raw power and general utility" as you note here. ... Or perhaps this gets to the core issue of my initial post and I'm just not buying into it. ... Because the limited number of spells a sorcerer knows/casts would seem to make him no better off than the hypothetical mystic, power or utility-wise. You're saying that arcane spells ARE better than divine? On a straight comparison of mana origin, given the same X number of spells of either divine or arcane nature, the arcane caster wins out ... and therefore the divine caster needs a little something extra to balance?

 

[Screamwhip]

No no no! Not stronger. Easier. More seductive. What I am saying is that there is almost always a time when Arcane magic is useful because, well, if you are creative you can always find something good to do with Dimension Door, Invisibility, or Grease. Most Cleric spells (buffs excepted) are used after a fight or challenge, in response to a specific issue. Compare Cure * Wounds, Unhallow, or Helping Hand to the above.

My argument is that the Divine spells usually let you prepare for something, prevent something, or remedy something, but that each thing requires its own spell, so versatility is a definate need for the class. Arcane magic lets you do something right then and there, but you can almost always find something to do with any given spell.

They differ more in purpose than power, I think.

 

[Nyaricus]

The Favoured Soul is basically considered to be a 'divine sorcerer' (ie spontaneous divine spellcaster) so look to it for balance help if you think you need it.

just my two coppers

 

[Driddle]

Thanks, N. Good idea.

Oh, and sometimes the most obvious element can be stupidly missed: I had forgotten that there are many more wizard-arcane spells than cleric-divine. For those numbers alone, the divine caster deserves compensation.

 

[Klaus]

The Favoured Soul is basically considered to be a 'divine sorcerer' (ie spontaneous divine spellcaster) so look to it for balance help if you think you need it.

just my two coppers

Was just about to post that.

The Favored Soul gets more stuff than the Mystic. Compare it to, say, the Battle Sorceror (from Unearthed Arcana).