DM seeks validation

[Steel_Wind]

Where are you getting that wacky idea?

(a) Stop fetishizing balance.

(b) You might want to try reading the rulebooks. Wandering Monsters are covered on pg. 77 of the 3.5 DMG. Wandering Monster tables start on pg. 324 of the Pathfinder Bestiary.

I think the relevant pages to read aren't 324 of the Bestiary -- they are pages 397 and 398 of the Core Rules. If you must read the PF Bestiary - it's worth having a look at p. 295 "Monster Advancement".

Those three pages would tell you that:

• Average Party level of three PCs of 4th level is 3
• CR of a bearded devil with max hit points is, at least, a hard CR6 (treat it as a 6.5 for most purposes ); and
• APL of 3 facing a monster with a CR of 6.5, i.e, +3 higher than the party level is = Epic difficulty.

A difference of more than three in CR level is asking for a potential TPK. Funny enough, that's what happened.

In other words, the party, even with maximum resources, would have been hard pressed to beat the monster. Unrested and depleted of resources, they were likely to die - and in fact, did.

There is a difference with using a wandering monster to disrupt resting and "take encounter control" away from spellcasters so as to challenge the 15 minute adventuring day ...

and using a wandering monster of +3 CR to do it. (Frankly - with Gestalt characters involved and max hit points on the devil, more like +4 CR).

As for the presence of the wandering monster chart in the PF Bestiary -- it's worth mentioning that you will be looking a long time to find Jason Bulmahn (or another prime time adventure designer at Paizo) using that chart in any of his published adventures.

Using a monster moving within the complex (which monster is presumably a CR appropriate critter) so as to challenge the timing and flow of when a combat is triggered is one thing; randomly picking said monster off of a chart (with a resulting inappropriate CR level) is quite another.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Again, the PCs were gestalt, that counts for something... You say it might make it a higher CR because the party was gestalt? I don't understand.

 

[gamerprinter]

Where are you getting that wacky idea?

(a) Stop fetishizing balance.

(b) You might want to try reading the rulebooks. Wandering Monsters are covered on pg. 77 of the 3.5 DMG. Wandering Monster tables start on pg. 324 of the Pathfinder Bestiary.

IMO, the game is more exciting when the world doesn't exist to pamper the PCs. One of my favorite gaming memories remains hiding in a ditch praying that the beholder we saw floating through the woods a few hundred feet away wouldn't spot us.

I read that whole article of fetishizing balance, much of if was disparity between fighters and wizards, well that doesn't apply to our gaming party, everybody is multi-class. There are no straight fighters or straight casters, everybody is both, and have been so for the majority of 2nd edition too. My issues of balance are between average party level and critters that are much too powerful as encounters - which is a problem of poor DMing.

Next regarding wandering monsters - the point was made that published modules tend not to have wandering monsters charts, I haven't seen any since second edition. And when home-brewing I never use wandering monsters charts. What I do use, is a "side board" of one or two monsters that exist though are not in any predetermined location, but may come up during the 15 minute rest period. I say, I don't have a chart of 1 - 8 monsters, the randomness is whether my predetermined monster shows up or not. If it does show up, the monster is already balanced with the party level, and can't accidently become a killing machine.

I agree Wandering Monster charts exist in 3e and Pathfinder RAW, but not in published adventures, and in my home brews not all.

You can still put efforts into maintaining balance without fetishizing it.

GP

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

Next regarding wandering monsters - the point was made that published modules tend not to have wandering monsters charts, I haven't seen any since second edition.

. . .

I agree Wandering Monster charts exist in 3e and Pathfinder RAW, but not in published adventures, and in my home brews not all.

I own three Paizo Adventure Paths (Legacy of Fire, Council of Thieves, and the first two installments of Kingmaker). Every installment of each of these that I own:

1. Has a Wandering Monster Table
2. Has Monsters on the Table that are higher CR than expected party levels.
3. Presents text that indicates that encounters with the Monsters on the Table are to be expected.

 

[Steel_Wind]

I own three Paizo Adventure Paths (Legacy of Fire, Council of Thieves, and the first two installments of Kingmaker). Every installment of each of these that I own:

1. Has a Wandering Monster Table
2. Has Monsters on the Table that are higher CR than expected party levels.
3. Presents text that indicates that encounters with the Monsters on the Table are to be expected.

If you are referring to the text in the Bestiaries of each of the APs. The encounter text is not referenced within the adventure itself, nor is any frequency suggested.

The charts are presented in the Bestiaries for GMs to use - but they are most defnitely NOT included or required in the AP module adventure text itself. At later stages of the AP, they are sometimes presented to the GM as an "option" to use. These suggestions tend to be downplayed -- and are prsented as options only in later stages of the APs when the threat they pose to the party are very different than the threat they might pose to a low level party.

Similarly, there are some wandering monster tables in some of the APs Gazeteer text. Even then, looking at the Wilderness encounters in, say. Legacy if Fire 2, the EL level of all by the Dragon and, possibly, the Purple Worm is within the upper expected difficulty range of the party's abilities by that stage -- albeit an epic encounter, to be sure.

Still , the encounters are presented as part of the region Gazeteer -- not as part of the adventure text itself. I may be wrong as it's been a while since I've read Legacy of Fire...

Edit: Checked again - if you are looking for an example of the wandering Monsters within the adventure text itself, have a look at Legacy of Fire, part 3 p. 65. I'm sure you will agree that this is a very different style list and approach to a Wandering Monster within the module text itself than appears in the Gazaeteer encounter lists or in the Bestiary text.

 

[Beginning of the End]

As for the presence of the wandering monster chart in the PF Bestiary -- it's worth mentioning that you will be looking a long time to find Jason Bulmahn (or another prime time adventure designer at Paizo) using that chart in any of his published adventures.

Your claim that Paizo's adventure designers don't use wandering monster tables doesn't seem to jive with the fact that Kingmaker includes wandering monster tables.

Next regarding wandering monsters - the point was made that published modules tend not to have wandering monsters charts, I haven't seen any since second edition.

In addition to the aforementioned Kingmaker, you'll also find wandering monster charts in Rise of the Runelords, Council of Thieves, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Legacy of Fire, and Second Darkness.

But maybe none of these adventure paths were written by the "prime time adventure designers" at Paizo. Jason Bulmahn surely must not be using them.

Conquest of Bloodsworn Veil, written by Jason Bulmahn, includes a wandering monster table on page 5.

Crucible of Chaos, developed and edited by Jason Bulmahn, includes a wandering monster table on page 9. The module is designed for 8th level adventurers. The table includes EL 15 random encounters.

I agree Wandering Monster charts exist in 3e and Pathfinder RAW, but not in published adventures, and in my home brews not all.

Are we done now?

 

[billd91]

If you are referring to the text in the Bestiaries of each of the APs. The encounter text is not referenced within the adventure itself, nor is any frequency suggested.

The charts are presented in the Bestiaries for GMs to use - but they are most defnitely NOT included or required in the AP module adventure text itself.

Check Kingmaker: Stolen Land page 13.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Check Kingmaker: Stolen Land page 13.

I deliberately did not comment on Kingmaker - which is a very different beast from Paizo's other APs as you well know.

I'll have more to say about Kingmaker at a later date

I do take your point though; please be equally as fair-minded and perhaps accept my point as well. Sound fair?

 

[billd91]

I deliberately did not comment on Kingmaker - which is a very different beast from Paizo's other APs as you well know.

I'll have more to say about Kingmaker at a later date

I do take your point though; please be equally as fair-minded and perhaps accept my point as well. Sound fair?

I would accept your point if I agreed with it. But I don't. The beasts aren't that different as far as the use of wandering monsters. The difference is in the focus on traveling from point to point within the play of the module. That may make the encounter tables more of a relied-upon resource for Kingmaker, but I don't think Paizo's approach is significantly different. If the DM of Legacy of Fire: House of the Beast choses to not gloss over travel in the Pale Mountains, the module points him right at the supplementary resources to flesh it out, including the wandering monster tables.

As far as an "included or required" wandering monster table in the AP adventures, I think you're limiting your focus to a particular encounter-location-based wandering monster table, while the ones in most of these APs are regional travel wandering monster tables. They're really just two aspects of the exact same thing, just tailored differently for use within different boundaries of player activity. For that matter, I don't see much conceptual difference between an appropriately designed random table and a DM-selection table like the encounter list you mention in the Legacy of Fire sidebar. The selection method (random vs DM choice) doesn't change what the table is - a means of injecting additional encounters into the setting that make it less static.

 

[BaldHero]

The goal post.
They have moved.