DM seeks validation

I was the Monk/Rogue. While yes, I was not using Sneak Attack dice, I also had no-one willing to flank with me in that fight.

I had a large stock of shurikens, including 25 silver ones. As a player, I knew about the DR, but the only one in the party who knew in-game did not share that knowledge, so the TPK was not the fault of BaldHero.

What has not been said is this: we were in the World's Largest Dungeon attempting to exact revenge for previous failed attempts into that hell-hole. Also, we were an entirely evil party that found great pleasure in screwing each other over.

I am fine with how this fight ended. Yes, the fight would have ended in our favor easily 5 rounds sooner had I used the silver shurikens... might also have been nice to not have our wizard at 4 INT... but that kinda makes the encounter memorable. More so, at any rate, than anything we ran into in the scripted encounters. WLD defeated us again, but I can't say we will miss it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I just gave it away. Literally.

I took it to the FLGS and gave it to them, maps and all, and told them to try and turn a profit on it.

L.
 

The charts are presented in the Bestiaries for GMs to use - but they are most defnitely NOT included or required in the AP module adventure text itself.

First, can we just acknowledge the absurdity of claiming that:

(a) The Pathfinder core rulebooks contain wandering monster tables.
(b) Paizo's modules include wandering monster tables "for GMs to use" (your words).
(c) But you aren't actually supposed to use them.

'Cause that's pretty flippin' absurd.

If you are referring to the text in the Bestiaries of each of the APs. The encounter text is not referenced within the adventure itself, nor is any frequency suggested.

But let's examine this latest claim in detail. Is it true?

Of course it's not.

Legacy of Fire, Volume 1, pg. 18: "After the PCs have set up shop in the monastery, the ruined nave is the most likely spot from which the building will be attacked by wandering monsters."

And contrary to your claim that I would be "looking a long time" to find Bulmahn using such techniques, it took me almost no time at all to find that he did, in fact, integrate wandering monster table checks into Conquest of the Bloodsword Veil. They weren't hidden in 6-point type or anything! It's like he meant for you to read 'em and use 'em!

This is amusing. Can you keep revising your claim into new (but still wildly inaccurate) forms?
 

First, can we just acknowledge the absurdity of claiming that:

(a) The Pathfinder core rulebooks contain wandering monster tables.
(b) Paizo's modules include wandering monster tables "for GMs to use" (your words).
(c) But you aren't actually supposed to use them.

'Cause that's pretty flippin' absurd.

Or in the alternative, accurate.

Paizo creates products for a variety of different customers to purchase and read. Some purchase them for the adventures and others purchase them to use as part of their Golarian setting and will never actually run the adventure itself. It's just there to be read and inspire the GM.

Are wandering monsters the default design of 3.xx or Pathfinder? No and HELL no. If you think otherwise because that's the game you want to run? Take as much of that style of play as you like. Fill your pockets. FILL YOUR BOOTS.

Your preferences are your preferences. What I may prefer and what you may prefer are necessarily different. It doesn't make one of them right and one of them wrong.

However, if you are saying that a game like 3.xx and Pathfinder, based on, in 3.xx case, explicit CR and EL design, and in the case of Pathfinder, a new CR basis with a new slower experience progression chart -- are both premised upon designing those foes and CR charts -- only to them throw them out the frikkin window with arbitrary encounter charts as the intended mode of play?

I think that opinion is DEAD wrong.

But let's examine this latest claim in detail. Is it true?

Of course it's not.

Legacy of Fire, Volume 1, pg. 18: "After the PCs have set up shop in the monastery, the ruin is the most likely spot from which the building will be attacked by wandering monsters."
Un-huh. And of course, it breaks right in to noting how often the GM should check for wandering monsters, clearly stating the frequency of encounters, thereby making the likelihood and frequency of those encounters an inferentially known and assumed part of the adventure text that the designer adjusts for. Just as the text invariably did back-in-the-day in every 1st ed module and 2nd edition module where that same text occurs.

Oh wait. It doesn't say that. Gee, that's odd isn't it?

Upshot: When the players are journeying towards the dungeon area, the GM can choose to give them an encounter if things are boring and the party's health and resources can handle it - otherwise, the GM should not. You certainly should not do this just because the dice say to do so. Use your discretion and do it only when it seems appropriate -- never because the dice just say so. That's 3E.

This, otoh, is 1E and 2E:

"Wandering monsters may be encountered in the labyrinth of Foozle, once per turn, on a roll of 1 on 1d6. Consult the table below to determine the encounter."

Old Skool: Roll the dice; read em and weep.

The Paizo AP adventures allows a GM to include them if he or she wants, but it is there is no explicit reference as to how often one should check for such wandering critters or the frequency of those checks and it is assumed they won't be RANDOM wandering monsters. It's left completely open to GM interpretation because the designers at Paizo KNOW that some GMs are Old Skool and like to add them - but they don't specify those encounters within the adventure text itself -- and almost never within the actual adventuring area of the dungeon itself. Because that's not 3E nor the intention behind the CR levels in the game. No, not even if you really, really want to pretend otherwise.

Note: the adventure is the adventure. The Bestiary and Region Guides are provided in the Adventure Path products to describe and flesh out the lands and regions in which the adventure takes place -- but that isn't the adventure text itself. That's a distinction with a difference -- and one that you gloss over pretty quickly in a rush to make a point which over-reaches considerably.

When you are looking for wandering monsters within the text of the adventures within the dungeon area, you'll see the list of monsters that are referenced within the design of the adventure itself are VASTLY shorter -- reflecting transitory encounters within the facility -- and are drawn from a brief list of monsters where the CR is tightly limited. They are there to disrupt flow and timing and potentially consume resources, but not to challenge the party itself in terms of lethality.

Look, if you want to game in a dungeon with a list of random monsters on a chart and let the dice determine what, when and how many monsters your party will face? Go ahead. There's nothing stopping you. The game is not designed for that style of play though -- and no amount of jumping up and down and posting in a snide, offensive and rude manner changes any of that.

If you are suggesting that the default mode of play encouraged by Pathfinder and specified in the adventure text of adventures put out by Paizo is to include wandering monsters in the dungeon as an explicit and assumed style of play? We're clearly reading different products.

In the OPs original post, the product in question was World's Largest Dungeon. I think that says it all in terms of the nature, sophistication and balance of the source dventure material. World's Largest? Maybe. World's Best? Nobody ever said that about WLD...
 
Last edited:

Upshot: When the players are journeying towards the dungeon area, the GM can choose to give them an encounter if things are boring and the party's health and resources can handle it - otherwise, the GM should not. You certainly should not do this just because the dice say to do so. Use your discretion and do it only when it seems appropriate -- never because the dice just say so. That's 3E.

This, otoh, is 1E and 2E:

"Wandering monsters may be encountered in the labyrinth of Foozle, once per turn, on a roll of 1 on 1d6. Consult the table below to determine the encounter."

Old Skool: Roll the dice; read em and weep.

The Paizo AP adventures allows a GM to include them if he or she wants, but it is there is no explicit reference as to how often one should check for such wandering critters or the frequency of those checks and it is assumed they won't be RANDOM wandering monsters. It's left completely open to GM interpretation because the designers at Paizo KNOW that some GMs are Old Skool and like to add them - but they don't specify those encounters within the adventure text itself -- and almost never within the actual adventuring area of the dungeon itself. Because that's not 3E nor the intention behind the CR levels in the game. No, not even if you really, really want to pretend otherwise.

Note: the adventure is the adventure. The Bestiary and Region Guides are provided in the Adventure Path products to describe and flesh out the lands and regions in which the adventure takes place -- but that isn't the adventure text itself. That's a distinction with a difference -- and one that you gloss over pretty quickly in a rush to make a point which over-reaches considerably.

When you are looking for wandering monsters within the text of the adventures within the dungeon area, you'll see the list of monsters that are referenced within the design of the adventure itself are VASTLY shorter -- reflecting transitory encounters within the facility -- and are drawn from a brief list of monsters where the CR is tightly limited. They are there to disrupt flow and timing and potentially consume resources, but not to challenge the party itself in terms of lethality.

Look, if you want to game in a dungeon with a list of random monsters on a chart and let the dice determine what, when and how many monsters your party will face? Go ahead. There's nothing stopping you. The game is not designed for that style of play though -- and no amount of jumping up and down and posting in a snide, offensive and rude manner changes any of that.

If you are suggesting that the default mode of play encouraged by Pathfinder and specified in the adventure text of adventures put out by Paizo is to include wandering monsters in the dungeon as an explicit and assumed style of play? We're clearly reading different products.

You are totally splitting hairs that do not exist. There's nothing about the 3e CR system that implies anything about use or non-use of wandering monster tables. It's not there to either promote or suppress wandering monster tables, nor to recommend for or against tailored or status quo encounters either. That's a campaign design decision above the CR system, actually.

There's also nothing within 3e itself to recommend against random encounter tables that I've been able to find. In fact, it includes information to facilitate building random encounter tables tailored for both an area and an average CR. So to take any of this and draw an inference that wandering monster tables are somehow not the recommended 3e way of doing things or is antithetical is fairly bizarre.
 

When you are looking for wandering monsters within the text of the adventures within the dungeon area, you'll see the list of monsters that are referenced within the design of the adventure itself are VASTLY shorter -- reflecting transitory encounters within the facility -- and are drawn from a brief list of monsters where the CR is tightly limited. They are there to disrupt flow and timing and potentially consume resources, but not to challenge the party itself in terms of lethality.
This is what happened when the group in my game triggered a trap. Just for the record. I call that a wandering monster. I got that encounter off a wandering monster chart.
the OPs original post, the product in question was World's Largest Dungeon. I think that says it all in terms of the nature, sophistication and balance of the source dventure material. World's Largest? Maybe. World's Best? Nobody ever said that about WLD...
Whoa. I don't want to slam the product. I am not saying it is not a good mod. I am saying it was not the right mod for us. I do not want this to turn into an issue.

WLD directly says when to check, how often to check, and each section of the Dungeon has a level appropriate Wandering Monster chart, with a range that goes from silly easy to OMFGRun!

So did mods back in the day. So did mods not so long ago. So do mods now.
Including the ones you are talking about. But you are not making any sense.

You seem to think that the edition of the rules has any real effect on the process. The process has been the same every edition.

Take a period of time, a distance traveled or an event trigger. Check to see if there is an encounter. If there is an encounter, it will be with one of the critters that are listed in this handy reference chart. These critters might be extra EP on legs, or they might be tough and dangerous, but they help to create verisimilitude and spice things up. Serving to tax and test the party. Maybe even helping to make sure that group A has a slightly different experience than group B, thereby increasing the personalization of the entire affair if they swap tall tales.

Now, if your argument is that this will throw off the EL/CR of a carefully planned encounter in 3.X/PF... you are right. That is perfectly acceptable. After all, not every encounter should be a safe one. Or easy, or hard or dangerous. It should be mixed up.
 
Last edited:

Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top