D&D 5E DMG page 274.

[doctorhook]

Or how about the tables on 280 and 281? ~100 different abilities and features that the monsters in the Monster manual have and what they do.

Wait, what?

My DMG is still awaiting shipping, but if I'm correctly understanding what you're saying is the content of those pages, I'm not aware of a previous core DMG that ever present that kind of info. That's a step above and beyond, as far as I'm concerned! Colour me very pleasantly surprised!

 

[JEB]

Hmm. While I understand why some people think the HP range on page 274 is average and not min-to-max - after all, 5E tends to use average values heavily - it seems less and less likely as I look at it more. And not just because of my reading of the text...

See, let's take CR 7, 161-175 hp. If that only describes the average-hp-per-die, that means a max-HP monster at CR 7 could have nearly half again or more HP, easily 250 or higher... doesn't that seem a little high for the potential power of a CR 7 monster? Keep in mind that 250 hp is the domain of CR 12 monsters... simply maxing out HP shouldn't be that much of a challenge boost.

But if 175 HP is the upper end of what we should expect from CR 7... that would make more sense.


Overall, though, I'm really hoping we get some kind of clarification on this in the near future...

 

[the Jester]

Hmm. While I understand why some people think the HP range on page 274 is average and not min-to-max - after all, 5E tends to use average values heavily - it seems less and less likely as I look at it more. And not just because of my reading of the text...

See, let's take CR 7, 161-175 hp. If that only describes the average-hp-per-die, that means a max-HP monster at CR 7 could have nearly half again or more HP, easily 250 or higher... doesn't that seem a little high for the potential power of a CR 7 monster? Keep in mind that 250 hp is the domain of CR 12 monsters... simply maxing out HP shouldn't be that much of a challenge boost.

You appear to be overlooking the fact that a monster with maximum hp/HD is, by those same tables, going to be higher CR than a monster with average hps. Are you supposed to adjust CR for exceptionally high or low hps? I haven't read the DMG thoroughly yet, so I dunno, but in the case of a 100 point difference, I'd absolutely take a look at it.

So let's take a hypothetical CR 7 monster with stats straight off the chart... and let's say that its HD are 20d10+60 (for a total of 170 hp, nicely in the range). If we change that monster to a maximum hp specimen (260 hp), then use the table, our defensive CR goes up to 12... leaving us with an overall CR (again, assuming offensive CR is 7) of 9.5 (rounding whichever way looks right). I think that's about right.

 

[JEB]

Are you supposed to adjust CR for exceptionally high or low hps?

Good question - I don't see that addressed in the DMG. In Lost Mine of Phandelver, you get normal Bugbear XP (200) for defeating max-HP King Grol. But maybe he's too low-CR for such a change to make a CR's worth of difference.

So, does anyone know the best way to get questions about the DMG sent to Mearls? That's at least two, now...

 

[Leatherhead]

Good question - I don't see that addressed in the DMG. In Lost Mine of Phandelver, you get normal Bugbear XP (200) for defeating max-HP King Grol. But maybe he's too low-CR for such a change to make a CR's worth of difference.

You are supposed to recalculate the CR as the last step when creating monsters, well after you set the ballpark for what CR you want them to be.
First you find the effective HP range, then you modify by AC, and then you average that number with the offensive CR based on how much damage it can nova. Then you round to the nearest CR.

Bugbears are dangerous because of their DPR, and the ability to use armor, their HP would be lacking with this method.
I haven't seen King Grols stat block, but if all he has going for him is (I assume) 45 hp, then he is still way under CR1 in the HP side of things.

 

[Leatherhead]

I think I have figured out the Gordian knot for this problem.

Actually, it's average hit points if you're using the "Assign Hit Dice" approach, where you pick Hit Dice that seem fair and "don't worry if the hit points aren't matching up with the expected challenge rating for the monster".

If you're using the table on page 274 (an approach referred to, obscurely, as "Use the Table"), it describes that as presenting "a range of hit points for each challenge rating." Meaning an expected maximum and minimum for that CR, and not an average amount (though such can easily be calculated by averaging the two ends of the range).

It's based on Effective Hit Points, not the average, or the max. The effective hit point total is found by taking the actual hit point total multiplied by creature features that impact durability, like damage resistance. You already have the actual hit point total in mind when you set the HP, it's just figuring out the amount of HD you want that is seeming to flip people here. Keep in mind, HD has no impact on the CR, just HP.

You don't actually roll for hit points. You say "I want this creature to have 200 hps." Then you just arbitrarily decide if you want to go for max HP/HD, average HP/HD (that's not even a hole number!) min HP/HD, or whatever other number that can be generated based on how many HD you want the creature to have. The wiggle room is, assuredly, so that you can virtually have "low or high rolls" in order to make converting the HP you set into HD easier.

Most people would probably find assuming mostly average HP/HD to be the easiest way to get into the HD range. I can't really think of any reason I would want to pad the HD total by setting the bar on the low end, but you can if it strikes your fancy.

 

[JEB]

Bugbears are dangerous because of their DPR, and the ability to use armor, their HP would be lacking with this method.

Eh, it actually wouldn't make a big difference. If the Hit Points column is "average", than the Bugbear's 27 HP would be Defensive CR 1/8. If the Hit Points column is "minimum-maximum", their max of 45 HP would be Defensive CR 1/4. Considering their DPR would presumably be figured as the average of 18 (Offensive CR 2) or the max of 30 (Offensive CR 4) to correspond... we're talking a CR between 1/2 and 1 (average) or a CR between 1 and 2 (min-max range). Either of which could be reasonably rounded to 1.

Anyway, there doesn't seem to be a lot of point debating this further, since the DMG text quite simply fails to explain whether it's average range or a min-max range on that table. Clearly we have our opinions, but what we really need is an official word from Mearls.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Not Mearls, but the rules sage Jeremy Crawford

http://thesageadvice.wordpress.com

 

[Leatherhead]

Anyway, there doesn't seem to be a lot of point debating this further, since the DMG text quite simply fails to explain whether it's average range or a min-max range on that table. Clearly we have our opinions, but what we really need is an official word from Mearls.

It does not say what roll range it is, because it is not a roll range on that table. It's a condensed list of individual effective or actual hp totals because having 850 separate lines on a table just to change the HP would be absurd. HD literally do not matter: Quick creatures don't even use HD, and HD are not used to calculate the final CR of a creature.

See page 277, Step 9. Followed by page 279, step 16 and then page 274 step 4.

 

[JEB]

[MENTION=53176]Leatherhead[/MENTION], I want to be able to use these guidelines to create monsters that look like the ones in the Monster Manual. Which means that I need a way to determine the appropriate number of hit points for a monster of my chosen CR and how to use that amount of hp to determine their number of Hit Dice. Until we know for sure whether or not the range listed on that table is supposed to be a monster's average HP or their typical HP potential, I can't really do that, because I don't know which approach the designers of the game had in mind when they built their own monsters.

To be clear, I understand your explanations above perfectly well. And using that table's range as "whatever this particular monster's hp is" works perfectly fine for determining CR on the fly, during preparation for an adventure or during gameplay. But unfortunately, it doesn't help anyone looking at this from the standpoint of monster design. For that, we need to know what the designers intended... which is why an official answer would be really useful at this time.

Not Mearls, but the rules sage Jeremy Crawford

http://thesageadvice.wordpress.com

Oh, cool. Anyone care to send him a Twitter message?