Level Up (A5E) Do abilities apply to passive checks?

[Morrus]

The problem is that the AG doesn't say what those "most common" abilities are--it kind of assumes that you already know from playing D&D. I don't think it's a huge problem, but as you can see, it's one that can lead to confusion.

It’s what you personally use most commonly. The AG doesn’t know you or your character. It’s just a convenience thing.

 

[noodohs]

The problem is that the AG doesn't say what those "most common" abilities are--it kind of assumes that you already know from playing D&D. I don't think it's a huge problem, but as you can see, it's one that can lead to confusion.

Yes, this is my point. Technically it does list, under each skill's description, the "most common" one, but nowhere is it indicated that this is part of the calculation. In fact, technically it doesn't even say abilities should be used at all when calculating passive scores, it simply implies it by listing it in the ability checks section.

The character sheet has three baked-in passive skills on it but no guidance as to how to calculate them. If it's meant to be Passive Stealth (DEX), Passive Insight (WIS), and Passive Perception (WIS), then it should say so. And if they aren't meant to have an ability associated with them, what's even the point of having them on the sheet? It is no more useful than just looking at my skills. Doesn't help me or the Narrator.

Honestly, there are a number of things on the sheet that aren't very clear to me (this isn't just an A5e problem, though). I'd love to have someone write a "how to" article of sorts that demonstrates what is meant to go where and why.

I’m really sorry, I’m not trying to be obtuse, I promise, but I honestly don’t understand the question.

I mean no offense, but it really just feels like you are intentionally unhelpful sometimes, notably every time I (or others) have asked for rules clarifications. I know you say that you are not, and I want to believe you, but it is very frustrating. You asked for options, so I provided two and you didn't choose either of them, nor did you address my additional thoughts. I really feel like I provided a wealth of details and you just... didn't read them and now I am just repeating myself over and over. Faolyn has provided a simple answer, which is great, but it doesn't address whether or not that was the intent of the designers, which is really what I am after. Community speculation is my second least favorite thing (Jeremy Crawford's vague and unhelpful responses are my least favorite) about O5e and I have really been hoping for some real clarity with A5e that I have, so far, not gotten.

It’s what you personally use most commonly. The AG doesn’t know you or your character. It’s just a convenience thing.

But if I've never played before, I also don't know my character or what is most common. So it's not very convenient to have no guidance. Additionally, it's up to the Narrator to decide what skill to use, yes? So I, as a player, would have even less idea what might be "most common" to the particular game I'm in until I'm well into it.

At the end of the day, whereas in O5e passive skills were a nice shortcut that could just go on the DM screen for reference, they seem like a lot more hassle and a lot less useful in A5e. There are, essentially, 120 passive skills in A5e. Since any ability can be used for any check, that's 6 per skill and there are 20 skills provided on the sheet. Hardly seems like it's saving any time for a Narrator...

 

[Faolyn]

It’s what you personally use most commonly. The AG doesn’t know you or your character. It’s just a convenience thing.

Right. I get it, but it's not particularly convenient for a new player. What the book should have said is, "Perception and Insight typically use Wisdom and Stealth typically uses Dexterity, but some characters may find they use more commonly other attributes instead."

 

[Morrus]

I mean no offense, but it really just feels like you are intentionally unhelpful sometimes, notably every time I (or others) have asked for rules clarifications. I know you say that you are not, and I want to believe you

Sorry. Not my intention, but this has become uncomfortable and I’ll exit the thread at this point.

 

[noodohs]

Understood. I meant no offense, sorry if any was done. Just trying to provide honest feedback.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I would actually argue that in A5e, it's quite the opposite. Skill checks exist completely independently of ability checks because any ability can be used with any skill. Ergo, ability bonuses modify skill checks, not the other way around. Having said that, still doesn't answer my question.

then you're reading it backwards - skills can modify any ability check, not the other way around. you can roll an ability check without accounting for a skill (e.g. you can make a flat intelligence check), but you can't roll a skill without accounting for an ability modifier. again, passive checks are explicitly ability checks. that's literally the first sentence of the section. and the using skills section (pg. 408) says (bold added for emphasis):

When a character attempts an ability check, the Narrator may decide that a specific skill is relevant to the check.
[...]
Any skill can be used with any ability check,[...]
Sometimes the Narrator will ask for an ability check using a certain skill:[...]Other times, a Narrator may ask for an ability check, and a player might ask whether one of their skills applies to the check. The Narrator is the sole arbiter of which skill, if any, applies to an ability check.

in short - skills apply to ability checks.
as for that not answering your question...yeah, that's my fault, i didn't read far enough ahead. i was getting ready for work and had just sort of assumed you were asking if ability modifiers applied to passive checks and was trying to clarify that yes, they do, without finishing the whole thing. i didn't see until now that you were asking if the narrator determines which ability bonus is used during a passive check. so, uh...sorry about that.

Right. I get it, but it's not particularly convenient for a new player. What the book should have said is, "Perception and Insight typically use Wisdom and Stealth typically uses Dexterity, but some characters may find they use more commonly other attributes instead."

the skills section does list the most common ability scores used with each skill in their appropriate section, but i wouldn't argue against a reminder in the passive checks section for the most likely passive skills.

 

[noodohs]

I think I was not very clear with the specifics of my question, in hindsight, so I can see how Morrus was confused. What I was actually after was less about abilities applying to passive checks, though based on the RAW it wasn't necessarily clear that they should, but rather that I was building out a character and trying to fill out the three passive skills on the sheet. There is no written guidance in any of the books as to what should go in these fields and that's what I was really after. Specifically, I was looking for designer intent for those fields and not player speculation/interpretation of them. But it doesn't look like I will get that now.

 

[Faolyn]

Well, judging by what Morrus said, designer intent was "whatever is most common for your character/table," which, of course, isn't helpful for complete newbies.

 

[Pedantic]

I think I was not very clear with the specifics of my question, in hindsight, so I can see how Morrus was confused. What I was actually after was less about abilities applying to passive checks, though based on the RAW it wasn't necessarily clear that they should, but rather that I was building out a character and trying to fill out the three passive skills on the sheet. There is no written guidance in any of the books as to what should go in these fields and that's what I was really after. Specifically, I was looking for designer intent for those fields and not player speculation/interpretation of them. But it doesn't look like I will get that now.

Yeah, the take-away here is that a "passive ability check" is a thing that could be called for with any combination of skills/abilities. The stuff on the character sheet is a suggested reference for the most common such types of checks, but is not an exhaustive list, and additionally leaves it an open question of which precise combination of ability+skill should come into play.

I agree that's a little awkward to deploy in practice (I honestly can't imagine trying to recalculated every player's Charisma (Insight) check on the fly because I decided it was more relevant than Wisdom) but I think the design intent is relatively clear.