Do alignments improve the gaming experience?

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Leaving aside the specifics of the Fate mechanics, may I suggest this thread indicates they are also susceptible to different interpretations and disagreement on how the mechanic works, or is intended to work? I'm seeing differences in when fate points are awarded, which aspects are "good aspects" or "bad aspects", etc.

My experience is that the mechanic is more subject to mistake or misunderstanding than to interpretation - not remembering the order of operations, for example, can make things weird.

The individual aspects are subject to interpretation. This is by no means a bad thing, more often a feature than a bug, in my experience.

For example, in a Dresden Files game I occasionally play in, my character is a musician. For thematic reasons, I tried to phrase several of his Aspects in term so song lyrics. One of them is from Hotel California, "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave." The character has former entanglements with Fae powers, and I put it there so the GM could compel me to keep me entangled (or, I could ask for an occasional fate point when I willfully failed to try to extract the character from fae business). It is an instance of an aspect that I would now call poorly phrased, as it is difficult to see how it could be used to invoke for a bonus or reroll.

However, the GM is a bright and creative dude, and he saw a way - a different interpretation. That phrase doesn't just represent the character's fae entanglements, it represents an even larger theme - the fact that his life, and everything in it, is tangled, and once you're in the web, it can be hard to get out. So, when he's in a fight, or a social encounter, I can often invoke it for a bonus on actions that are trying to keep the enemy from escaping.

Ratskinner's statement makes it pretty clear that the GM is making the judgment of when that aspect merits, or does not merit, a mechanical award. It seems the player believes his character merits a Fate point and the GM can disagree. That seems similar to a player believing an action is consistent with his alignment and the GM disagreeing.

Not quite. Note that the aspect, in and of itself, *never* merits a mechanical reward. In FATE, it is not enough to behave consistently with the aspect (or alignment) to get a fate point. That behavior must also complicate the character's life to a significant degree. Bloviating religious dogma isn't enough - you have to cheese off the shopkeeper with your bloviating, such that he won't sell you the new weapon you kinda needed.

Whether this becomes an argument at the table or not does not depend primarily on whether we are dealing with aspects or alignments, but on whether the people at the table can "agree to disagree" and accept a ruling of "NO".

Actually, the difference between aspects and alignments is important here, as others have noted.

If, in FATE, at a given time, the GM doesn't think you're really in line with your Aspect, you fail to get a point that'll give you a +2 on one die roll. It isn't really worth an argument. There' will be more opportunities - heck you may be able to immediately ask if another Aspect applies instead.

In D&D, if the GM thinks you've seriously deviated from your alignment, your cleric character could, for example, lose all spellcasting power! Alignment stakes are often much larger than Aspect stakes, so are more likely to become arguments - the player has a lot more to lose.

There are mechanics in FATE that can mirror the major loss from deviation from alignment (called Consequences), but you can't just assign a big consequence for no reason, or for not playing to one aspect. Such a consequence would be the result of some major failure for the character - he can take the consequence instead of damage in a conflict.
 

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I find this discussion on Fate interesting. It would be even more interesting to see how it might be integrated into the D&D Paladin framework (obviously with changes to reflect the D&D system).

Let's see, a Paladin has a list of requirements related to his code (based on whatever the forces of law and good provide in the context of the game world). Let's say it looks like this

Paladin's Code
1. Defend the Innocent
2. Vanquish evil
3. Act Honorably

Each of this requirements can be compelled by the DM, granting a bonus to the Paladin (say the effects of a Shield of Faith spell or something). The Paladin can refuse the compel with a successful Will save (DC=10+character level)? If he succeeds, he continues as normal (perhaps representing false visions sent by the forces of chaos and evil), if he fails, he is compelled but does not receive the bonus (perhaps representing a moment of weakness or hesitation).

Anyway, interesting stuff.
 

I find this discussion on Fate interesting. It would be even more interesting to see how it might be integrated into the D&D Paladin framework (obviously with changes to reflect the D&D system).

Fate usually keeps the effects of Aspects pretty uniform. You can invoke an aspect for a +2, or a reroll, or to stipulate a detail in the world. You may be able to invoke the aspect "Holy Priest" to give you a +2 bonus on a defense roll against a vampire at bay, but that isn't a roll another person without that aspect couldn't make, at least in theory.

Outright magical powers are usually handled by Skills, Stunts, or other extras.

Each of this requirements can be compelled by the DM, granting a bonus to the Paladin (say the effects of a Shield of Faith spell or something).

GM compels are for complications, not bonuses. You get a fate point from the GM when something *bad* happens to you, not when something good (like your defenses turning on) happens to you!

Some stunts or extras may require a fate point to make run - so allowing yourself to be compelled helps make your powers run, but it is indirect. You can have a Paladin with those Aspects, and a Stunt called "Shield of Faith" that needs a fate point to activate, for example - following his code will generally mean he has the power to make his magic happen.
 

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A GM drawing on character's aspects to create a scenario... is not the same as compelling them. Compelling an aspect is a specific action that is laid out in the rules, and it is not interchangeable with designing a scenario. A retro compel is when the GM is laying complications (that actually affect you character in a negative way) down on your character but not giving you a fate point... again just sticking a snake in a scenario isn't doing that.

In the original presentation, the fact that the monster is a snake is presented as a modification/inspiration made with the character's aspect in mind. That's exactly what a compel (retro or otherwise) is designed for. As I mentioned elsewhere, its not just the snake alone. The snake and the innocents being posed together like that is what makes it a viable double-compel. Take one out, and other (at least as far as we know from the scenario as presented) ceases to be an issue.

Again, what complication based on his aspects has arisen... before the snake does anything it is just there.
Instead, we tweak the scene to play on the character's aspects and it's a Giant Serpent.

Right there.

My read of the original scenario is that the innocents and (some monster) were already there, and the GM made it a snake, just for the purpose of that aspect...that is the complication that arises from the snake just being there, because snakes have a special relationship to the PC. As I said before:

Because you have Why did it have to be snakes? as an aspect, it makes sense that when you try to rescue these people that a huge snake is threatening them. Damn your luck.

That's a textbook retroactive event compel. Because now, even with the compel to flee, the character has a choice to make: Fight the snake, with the GM beating on my fear of snakes the whole time, or flee. The scenario doesn't exist until it sees the table, it doesn't matter if the GM wrote it down last week or just came up with it now.

When the character encounters the tableau of snakes and innocents and the GM tries to compel him via Defender of Innocents to protect them from the snake. However, at that point, the character should be walking in with 3 FP and this whole issue goes away.

Now, take away the snake, make it instead an ogre or something. Then the DM can only compel Defender of Innocents to provoke the character to engage. If the PC came into the situation with no FP, then he pretty much has to enter the fray with the 1 FP from the compel. (The book is actually silent on this, AFAICT.)

What I'm saying is the snake being there isn't directly causing a complication for the character so he should not get a FP just because a snake shows up in a scene.

But it is, in this case, creating a complication for the character. If it was an ogre, then the character's phobia is irrelevant, and if there is not a need for the character to enter the room (the innocents), it doesn't create a complication. However, the fact that there is a huge snake in the room with innocents that I wish to defend does create extra complications for the character. If for no other reason than the GM being able to invoke Why'd it have to be snakes? against him during the fight. That makes the decision to enter the room/fight non-trivial for the PC.

Emphasis mine... a giant snake just being in the scene (especially since even you admit the aspect is supposed to be centered around a phobia) doesn't add damage, or insult to injury... now once it's invoked to cause the player to run away in fear or attacks the innocents... then it does that.

This paragraph demonstrates confusion about how several facets Fate works (but that may be just rushed typing):

An invoke is a different thing from a compel and (generally speaking) cannot be used to "cause the character to run away in fear". An invoke could be used by the GM to give a +2 bonus to the snake's Intimidation mental attack against the character which would (presumably) deal damage...the nature of which is up to the player. He may take a consequence like Shaking in my boots! instead of fleeing.

The examples for the Event type of compel are quite clear, I think, in that when the GM introduces a plot element to drag the character around by his aspects...that's a compel.

Well IMO oppinion fear can cause a flight or fight respeonse and so the character would be able to draw on either when it comes to his fear of snakes... of course this is more of that ambiguity, and different GM decisions we were talking about before...

In this case, if the narrative fits, use it. Its not about whether or not the GM will "allow" it as a blanket rule, but whether it makes sensible/good fiction. I could see invoking Why did it have to be snakes? to get bonuses to flee snake-filled rooms, to detect the presence of snaky things, etc. Fate GMs don't get to decide that an aspect can't be invoked as a blanket rule, but decide it on a case by case basis. Personally, I usually interpret it pretty liberally, and the Fate Core book advice encourages GMs to do likewise.
 

I find this discussion on Fate interesting. It would be even more interesting to see how it might be integrated into the D&D Paladin framework (obviously with changes to reflect the D&D system).

Let's see, a Paladin has a list of requirements related to his code (based on whatever the forces of law and good provide in the context of the game world). Let's say it looks like this

Paladin's Code
1. Defend the Innocent
2. Vanquish evil
3. Act Honorably

Each of this requirements can be compelled by the DM, granting a bonus to the Paladin (say the effects of a Shield of Faith spell or something). The Paladin can refuse the compel with a successful Will save (DC=10+character level)? If he succeeds, he continues as normal (perhaps representing false visions sent by the forces of chaos and evil), if he fails, he is compelled but does not receive the bonus (perhaps representing a moment of weakness or hesitation).

Anyway, interesting stuff.

That's an interesting idea, although I'm not so keen on the Will to refuse. I think I'd make it so that the the Paladin gains points of some kind when performing "code" acts. Those points are then used to power his paladinic abilities. So Lay on Hands might require one Righteous Point. I suppose some might be zero cost or continuous. Heck, you could make things like Detect Evil radii dependent on the number of Righteous Points: 10' per Righteous points.

What's nice is that different orders of Paladins (or even clerics) could choose different aspects for their code.
 

As I mentioned elsewhere, its not just the snake alone. The snake and the innocents being posed together like that is what makes it a viable double-compel. Take one out, and other (at least as far as we know from the scenario as presented) ceases to be an issue.

If there is already supposed to be a monster there, making it a snake, in and of itself, is not a complication. The character could attack the other monster, or the snake. Having the snake-phobic aspect does not restrict character action by its mere existence. It is only when the GM *further* compels the PC (to stay back from fear) that the character's life gets more difficult. So, putting the snake is not a compel, on its own.

Thus my distinction:

If you make it a snake, you're just setting up.

If you make it a snake, and *with* that you stipulate that the character cannot get close, it is a compel.

If you make it a snake, and the player volunteers, "Crap, I'm a melee character, but I'm scared of snakes, so I have to stand back and find another way to help those innocents," you make it a retroactive compel.
 

GM compels are for complications, not bonuses. You get a fate point from the GM when something *bad* happens to you, not when something good (like your defenses turning on) happens to you!

Some stunts or extras may require a fate point to make run - so allowing yourself to be compelled helps make your powers run, but it is indirect. You can have a Paladin with those Aspects, and a Stunt called "Shield of Faith" that needs a fate point to activate, for example - following his code will generally mean he has the power to make his magic happen.

Yes, but that's using a system where the player can invoke their own aspect. Here it would be working as a balancing method (for those that think one is necessary). The Paladin wants to kill the innocent orc baby, which the DM thinks would be against his code. Rather than make him lose his powers if he does it (which is the current system), he instead compels the character not to act. The player can go along with it, gaining a bonus of some sort or he can resist it and possibly justify his actions or be forced to not take the action and not gain a bonus. It's probably not the best method, but I'm just throwing ideas out.

I wasn't trying to mimic the system, just see if something similar could be used within the current 3x framework of the Paladin. The divine force is compelling the character rather than the DM compelling the player.

As it stands right now in 3x, the Paladin is balanced with the fighter (whether it actually is might be up for debate) and yet also has a negative strapped to his neck (possibly losing his powers). If the paladin had abilities that surpassed the fighter (as in older editions), then it might make sense. Otherwise, there needs to be a bonus system of some sort in order to justify the negative. Either that needs to be built into the paladin (something he gets) or some other system (such as the one I mentioned) needs to be used to balance the negative.

Anyway, just some thoughts.
 

If there is already supposed to be a monster there, making it a snake, in and of itself, is not a complication. The character could attack the other monster, or the snake. Having the snake-phobic aspect does not restrict character action by its mere existence. It is only when the GM *further* compels the PC (to stay back from fear) that the character's life gets more difficult. So, putting the snake is not a compel, on its own.

Thus my distinction:

If you make it a snake, you're just setting up.

If you make it a snake, and *with* that you stipulate that the character cannot get close, it is a compel.

If you make it a snake, and the player volunteers, "Crap, I'm a melee character, but I'm scared of snakes, so I have to stand back and find another way to help those innocents," you make it a retroactive compel.

This was my understanding of how a compel would work in this situation as well...
 

That's an interesting idea, although I'm not so keen on the Will to refuse. I think I'd make it so that the the Paladin gains points of some kind when performing "code" acts. Those points are then used to power his paladinic abilities. So Lay on Hands might require one Righteous Point. I suppose some might be zero cost or continuous. Heck, you could make things like Detect Evil radii dependent on the number of Righteous Points: 10' per Righteous points.

What's nice is that different orders of Paladins (or even clerics) could choose different aspects for their code.

In Pathfinder, which already has systems of points (such as Ki for Monks, Ninjas, etc) it would make sense. In 3x it's a little different. But yeah, I was thinking "Faith" points to power Lay on Hands, Divine Channeling, Smites, etc. It's certainly one direction it could go. In this case the Paladin would be earning points for acting with the code and simply gaining nothing by not acting in code. I think some people want a punishment aspect rather than a not gaining aspect. I don't know.
 

Again, what complication based on his aspects has arisen... before the snake does anything it is just there.

<snip>

No it didn't the snake hasn't caused a complication for the character when the scenario starts, it is only after the GM decides what the snake will do and how it will cause a complication for the character thatan actual compel takes place
As [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION] described the scenario, the giant snake is about to eat some innocent NPCs whom the PC in question is trying to rescue. There's your complication right there - and as [MENTION=6688937]Ratskinner[/MENTION] has pointed out, it operates on both aspects: the presence of the snake complicates the Defence of the Innocent; and the presence of the innocent NPCs complicates Why Does It Have To Be Snakes.
 

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