Do alignments improve the gaming experience?

[Ratskinner]

Applying this to N'raac's example, then, we're being asked to think about a situation in which the GM frames the PC into a scene where s/he has to rescue some NPCs from a snake, and the GM (presumably) knows that player has not fate points left, and the GM then uses a compel to have the PC flee the scene and thereby fail in his/her goals in the scene. Even if the rules of the game allow for that - and as I don't know them very well I have to concede that they might - how does that possibly look like good GMing? To me it seems terrible - what's the point of framing the PC into a scene only to then resolve it, without the player ever engaging the action resolution mechanics, via a compel?

Agreed, that's why my first impression was one of unfamiliarity with the game. That is, such a thing might happen, but its very clumsy vis-a-vis Fate's typical functioning.

I also wonder - is there anything (rule or guideline) which discusses the use of compels to bring a scene to an end? The basic idea seems to be that it's about complicating scenes rather than terminating them.

The stated goal of a scene is "the players try to achieve a goal or otherwise accomplish something significant in a scenario." The advice a few pages later is to end the scene as soon as that's resolved. I definitely agree that complicating scenes (or framing them in interesting ways) is the primary purpose of the compel mechanic. There is no particular advice about using compels to resolve such a thing. As above, I'd say its bad form...that is, it creates a "non-scene" rather than scene, for the DM to use it as presented in the scenario. However, I could envision a situation where the GM uses compels on situational aspects (that is, aspects attached to the scene, location, setting, etc.) especially ones that have been created during the course of the scene like: The fire is spreading! to compel the characters to leave a building without attaining their goal.

 

[Imaro]

Just read it.

Let me pose you the opposite question: Same scene as in the example from the book, but its street thugs that are unrelated to Zird's aspects at all. Does Zird get the Fate Point?

Well my thoughts would be that the DM wouldn't be able to compel Zird's aspect since it doesn't concern street thugs. Thus he wouldn't be able to offer him a point for a complication concerning a situation where they show up because no aspect can be compelled concerning them.

In other words Zird doesn't tend to get in seriously complicated situations with street thugs because he doesn't have an aspect concerning them... His interactions with the Collegia however always seems to be a little more complicated, this is because his aspect allows them to be compelled and made more complicated by the GM on a meta-game level.

 

[Imaro]

The stated goal of a scene is "the players try to achieve a goal or otherwise accomplish something significant in a scenario." The advice a few pages later is to end the scene as soon as that's resolved. I definitely agree that complicating scenes (or framing them in interesting ways) is the primary purpose of the compel mechanic. There is no particular advice about using compels to resolve such a thing. As above, I'd say its bad form...that is, it creates a "non-scene" rather than scene, for the DM to use it as presented in the scenario. However, I could envision a situation where the GM uses compels on situational aspects (that is, aspects attached to the scene, location, setting, etc.) especially ones that have been created during the course of the scene like: The fire is spreading! to compel the characters to leave a building without attaining their goal.

This is not the only goal of a scene, I just listed the 3 purposes of a scene earlier. By leaving out the other two you give a false perception of all the functions that a scene can be used for.


EDIT: Again here is the relevant info from a post I addressed to [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]

Whenever you’re trying to come up with ideas for what should happen in a scene, you should think about the basic ideas of Fate that were talked about in The Basics—competence, proactivity, and drama.
In other words, ask yourself if your scene is doing at least one of the following things:

• Giving your PCs the chance to show off what they’re good at, whether by going up against people who don’t hold a candle to them or by holding their own against worthy opponents.
• Giving your PCs the chance to do something you can describe with a simple action verb. “Trying to find out information” is too muddy, for example. “Breaking into the mayor’s office” is actionable and specific. Not that it has to be physical—“convince the snitch to talk” is also a clear action.
• Creating some kind of difficult choice or complication for the PCs. Your best tool to do this with is a compel, but if the situation is problematic enough, you might not need one.

Emphasis mine... This scene clearly meets the last requirement and since a scene only needs to meet one of these goals, by the book a scene like this is valid. We have created a difficult complication for the PC that could/would (in the hands of a good GM & player) both come back to haunt the player and possibly cause character growth or development. Always succeeding is not a requirement for a scene.

 

[Ratskinner]

This is not the only goal of a scene, I just listed the 3 purposes of a scene earlier. By leaving out the other two you give a false perception of all the functions that a scene can be used for.

Fate Core, p. 240

Defining Scenes
A scene is a unit of game time lasting anywhere from a few minutes to a half hour or more, during which the players try to achieve a goal or otherwise accomplish something significant in a scenario.

Seems pretty clear to me. The advice you quoted is about creating scenes and what sorts of things the GM should look for in framing them. It is giving more specification to the definition above. I don't see them as contradictory, nor is the part you emphasized to @pemerton a matter of dispute. I guess I'm a little confused by this response.

EDIT: Oh wait, I think I might understand now, but maybe not:

I characterized the snake scenario as presented as a bit of a "non-scene". Are you disagreeing with that on that grounds that compels are used to force hard choices?

 

[Ratskinner]

Well my thoughts would be that the DM wouldn't be able to compel Zird's aspect since it doesn't concern street thugs. Thus he wouldn't be able to offer him a point for a complication concerning a situation where they show up because no aspect can be compelled concerning them.

In other words Zird doesn't tend to get in seriously complicated situations with street thugs because he doesn't have an aspect concerning them... His interactions with the Collegia however always seems to be a little more complicated, this is because his aspect allows them to be compelled and made more complicated by the GM on a meta-game level.

So its the same situation, the same complication...yet the opponent taking advantage of them is different, and this is the critical difference that earns a Fate point. Yes?

 

[Imaro]

So its the same situation, the same complication...yet the opponent taking advantage of them is different, and this is the critical difference that earns a Fate point. Yes?

No...How is it the same situation? The enemies being there is the set-up or situation... irregardless of what enemies happen to be in the scene...

This is where the compel and exchange of a FP actually take place...

“Perfect!” says Amanda, and holds out a fate point. “So, it’d make sense that yourRivals in the Collegia Arcana would have divined precisely the right time to catch you away from all your magical implements and gear, right?”
Ryan grins and takes the fate point. “Yeah, that sounds about right.”

Emphasis mine... this is the complication from the compel that earns a fate point... not the fact that the Collegia Arcana shows up but the fact that the aspect was compeled to create the complication that Zird has none of his magical gear with him when he is confronted by them due to their divinatory powers... this is above and beyond just having a confrontation with them.

What couldn't happen is the GM, using that same aspect, compel the player of Zird to confront the thugs without his magical gear... so no compel and no fate point.

 

[Imaro]

EDIT: Oh wait, I think I might understand now, but maybe not:

I characterized the snake scenario as presented as a bit of a "non-scene". Are you disagreeing with that on that grounds that compels are used to force hard choices?

Disagreeing because that scene both creates drama and forces a hard complication on the player... It may not be a scene you personally would enjoy, but I think it's a scene nonetheless.

 

[Ratskinner]

Disagreeing because that scene both creates drama and forces a hard complication on the player... It may not be a scene you personally would enjoy, but I think it's a scene nonetheless.

I honestly couldn't say from the brief description of the scenario whether it does those things or not, lack of context.

 

[Imaro]

I honestly couldn't say from the brief description of the scenario whether it does those things or not, lack of context.

So why judge it a non-scene instead of stating that??

 

[Ratskinner]

No...How is it the same situation? The enemies being there is the set-up or situation... irregardless of what enemies happen to be in the scene...

This is where the compel and exchange of a FP actually take place...

“Perfect!” says Amanda, and holds out a fate point. “So, it’d make sense that yourRivals in the Collegia Arcana would have divined precisely the right time to catch you away from all your magical implements and gear, right?”
Ryan grins and takes the fate point. “Yeah, that sounds about right.”

Emphasis mine... this is the complication from the compel that earns a fate point... not the fact that the Collegia Arcana shows up but the fact that the aspect was compeled to create the complication that Zird has none of his magical gear with him when he is confronted by them due to their divinatory powers... this is above and beyond just having a confrontation with them.

What couldn't happen is the GM, using that same aspect, compel the player of Zird to confront the thugs without his magical gear... so no compel and no fate point.

Keeping in mind that Zird's sheet says nothing about any gear, what's your response to the following:

Inspired by recent headlines, the GM wants to introduce a storyline about local gangs attacking civilians. "Where does Zird go to relax after a long day at the Collegia Lab?"
"hmm....the public baths!"
"Okay, you're there and soaking in the tub without your gear, when a group of teenage thugs bursts into the room brandishing knives and coming for you!"