Do alignments improve the gaming experience?

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For example: I'm just fine with alignment being a baseline/default presentation in the game personally. However, when it becomes mechanically ingrained in binary (character-wise) fashions is where I start to draw lines.


Paladins: LG-only = Bad

Lathander: LG Diety, Sun Domain, followers usually Good (C, N or L) or LN is cool.
 

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Imaro - your last bit about being beholden is why I characterize your views of mechanical alignment as using alignment to punish errant players.

And that's where you are mistaken. You are making the unfounded and incorrect leap of logic that because I like mechanics that actually reinforce the fiction of being beholden to something (and this is both as a player and DM) that I must then in turn be a "bad" DM and use those mechanics to "punish" players as opposed to using them to reinforce said fictional positioning in my game. Or enjoy playing under mechanics that reinforce the fact that my paladin is beholden to something he doesn't fully understand, command or control. For me playing under the mechanical alignment rules gives me the feeling of, as a holy warrior, having to surrender (or rebel if I feel strongly enough about something) to something beyond my comprehension and understanding... This IMO feels like giving over or rebelling against faith. I just don't get that experience with the do whatever you want, it's ok, paladin.

It's true. A 4e paladin is not under any mechanical reasons for behaving like a paladin. That's because you don't actually need the stick to force players to play their characters.

Honestly there is very little we "need" in D&D besides some sort of conflict resolution system (and some players and DMs may not even "need" this)... which could just as easily be do rock/paper/scissors... best out of 3 wins... whenever there is disagreement. I think when you speak to need you are assuming that everyone is looking for the same experience concerning their gaming and in assuming that you assume that it must be the same as yours.

People who play paladins in 4e do so because they want to play paladins. Not because playing a paladin is any sort of advantage. Why choose the archetype and then not play it? There's no advantage. Min max gamist play doesn't enter into it.

I don't think you can vouch for why everyone who has ever chosen a paladin plays one. On the character Ops board the paladin and warlock are a pretty powerful hybrid combination and are often used in crazy builds... this has nothing to do with picking the paladin for thematic reasons, it's a purely gamist reason. yes I know people like to pretend that 4e can't be gamed but the WotC CharOps boards are full of examples of people doing this or asking for help to do it in their games.

It would be like playing a wizard but choosing to wear armor and use a sword. Sure you can do it but why bother? Why not play a fighter?

And yet some people do choose to do this in versions of the game where it is allowed...

IOW you don't need mechanical alignment in order to play moralistic characters.

Who is arguing a "need"... I don't think anyone on either side is arguing it's something that's needed except perhaps you.
 
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I would say, broadly, that's it easier to remove and replace mechanics you don't like than to have to make them up whole cloth. So I would leave alignment in, especially since its mechanical footprint is so small.

If something alignment specific comes up, just define it terms of allegiances or supernatural categories.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on it as well.
 

3. I noticed that in order to mechanically back up the fictional positioning of your fallen paladin (which in my opinion implies much more than just being a traitor)... you had to house rule the character, now I find this a much more satisfying answer than "fictional positioning" (Since in essence you are just playing a paladin who can do whatever he wants and is not beholden to the archetype)... wouldn't this be just as viable in 3.x if you wanted to keep encounter balance equal? Just house rule a rebuild of the character or give them a number of feats equal to a fighter.
The reason why we went with the (obviously extended) retraining route into a rebuild was because the character did much more than just fall. He went from being a demon-exorcising/slaying crusader to a living avatar for a demon prince. It required pretty severe mechanical measures. Rebuilding characters mid-game has never been foreign to any of my games (regardless of edition). Not even 3.x (the most malleable system for character creation) allows changes that don't perturb the encounter budgeting (eg outright adding of a template changes the CR of a character until they've earned the XP to warrant the level-adjustment).

If you don't want to rebuild as a Blackguard (or Themes, PP, ED) or retrain with smaller components, I think you can pull a more mundane version of the "fall" off in several ways:

1) Divine sponsorship can just come from an opposing deity, more in line with the character's methods and behavior regime, with the fictional positioning representing that change. It could be subtle (such as refluffing the manifestation of the God's voice when invoking a Divine keyword power that buffs Diplomacy) or in your face (an actual agent of the deity arrives as ambassador). Given that Radiant isn't "Holy", it mutes the moral implications of its invocation such that evil deities, and their proxies, can, and do, invoke it the same as their good counterparts.

2) If you want a more dramatic thematic change, you can agree upon some keyword changes in various powers (such as Radiant to Necrotic, Cold, or Psychic).

3) You can leverage the Disease/Condition Track mechanics. Stage 1 can be something relatively mundane such as loss of a Healing Surge and that being narrated as feeling distance from your God. Stage 2 might be keyword changes to powers. Stage 3 might make things permanent. Instead of an Endurance check, you could go with a Religion check. When permanent, it may require some form of atonement quest as a Ritual component and some form of Ritual with a Skill Challenge (such as Remove Affliction or the Exorcism - can't think of the name right now - ritual).

4) You can leverage the open descriptor magic item rules. You can have Alternate Advancements (such as Divine Boons) that basically work as a template which would endow the thematic and mechanical components.

As far as the question of "can't you just temporarily turn a 3.x Paladin into a Fighter or rebuild as a Blackguard?" You certainly can ignore alignment with 3.x with respect to Paladin ethos. This is precisely the route that we went when a player in one of my old 3.x games willfully initiated a fall as a Paladin in order to become a Blackguard. However, in total, you've still got a considerable amount of work to do to fully detach embedded alignment from the supernatural mechanics of the system, primarily the impact of prolific Divinations on play (hello Paladin!), but also the Abjurations, Evocations, and the Conjuration rules.

With the Paladin class, in the end, we changed At-Will Detect Evil to be a (Su) scaling bonus to Sense Motive following the progression of the Ranger's 1st Favored Enemy (supernatural insight into the nature of people/beings). Then Smite Evil lost the "Evil" part, just becoming "Smite." Aura of Good got changed to something that I can't remember. Some other changes. Basically I all but rewrote the class using bits and bobs from various Prestige Classes.
 

Imaro - you are the only one talking about this in terms of being a good or bad DM.

If you agree that there is no need for mechanical alignment then it follows that it is possible to play a paladin without mechanical alignment.

You want alignment to be adjudicated by the DM. That's fine. To me that's just passing the buck. I'd much rather the player takes responsibility for his or her own character.

But I do have to say that I would never base my opinions about a game on thought experiments on Wotc's Charop boards. I mean you already admit that people on the boards are not taking paladins for optimization but are playing hybrids.
 

Imaro - a further thought occurs to me. Let's say you are right and the player is choosing paladin for purely gamist min/max reasons. Ok. Now obviously this player is not particularly interested in morality in play.

So how is mechanical alignment improving his experience? I agree that it might improve your experience as the DM in that it farces the player to play to archetype. But how is that improving his experience?

Or put it another way. Would you play your paladin differently if there were no mechanical alignment requirements? I wouldn't. My paladins weren't paladins because they had to be because of the mechanics. My paladins were paladins because paladins are cool.
 

You want alignment to be adjudicated by the DM. That's fine. To me that's just passing the buck. I'd much rather the player takes responsibility for his or her own character.

Why is having the DM do the adjudication the players passing the buck rather than having the players do it the DM passing the buck? I'd generally prefer to have the DM take responsibility for the world around the PCs.
 

Imaro - you are the only one talking about this in terms of being a good or bad DM.

It's hard not to when you choose to use words like punish as oppose to a more neutral term like judge or even arbitrate...

If you agree that there is no need for mechanical alignment then it follows that it is possible to play a paladin without mechanical alignment.

It's not possible to play the type of paladin I and others in this thread prefer without mechanical alignment. However it is possible to play the type of paladin you enjoy without it.

You want alignment to be adjudicated by the DM. That's fine. To me that's just passing the buck. I'd much rather the player takes responsibility for his or her own character.
[MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION] addressed this below, personally I don't think your "passing the buck" statement really holds any water for exactly the reason billd91 hints at in his question to you... so I'll wait for your reply to that before commenting.

But I do have to say that I would never base my opinions about a game on thought experiments on Wotc's Charop boards. I mean you already admit that people on the boards are not taking paladins for optimization but are playing hybrids.

I'm not even sure how to address this... you claim people play a paladin because they want to experience the archetype and you don't see why tey would play outside of that reason...

I give you a situation where the class is being used for optimization purposes... and your answer boils down to ignore optimization... and... it's not a full paladin. The point I was making is that not everyone plays like you. For some the point is the mechanics, whether that is for hybriding, multi-classing or being in the class just to reach a particular paragon path or epic destiny (since people can start above level 1) that is rated highly and they could care less about thematic underpinnings as opposed to optimizing... and the fact is nothing in 4e makes it necessary for them to care about the thematic underpinnings of a paladin.
 

Imaro - a further thought occurs to me. Let's say you are right and the player is choosing paladin for purely gamist min/max reasons. Ok. Now obviously this player is not particularly interested in morality in play.

So how is mechanical alignment improving his experience? I agree that it might improve your experience as the DM in that it farces the player to play to archetype. But how is that improving his experience?

Do you also agree that it might improve the experience of the table as opposed to the single player? See as the DM I'm not there to cater to one particular player I am there to make sure that my group as a whole is having fun and mechanical alignment helps to guarantee that at least a modicum of service to the archetype will be paid. if that is already there then mechanical alignment fades into the background and again it is a win for me and the player. In other words if I have a player genuinely interested in playing to the archetype of a paladin then the "punish"mechanic will rarely, if ever, come up. So how does it detract from a player who is truly interested in playing to the archetype?


Or put it another way. Would you play your paladin differently if there were no mechanical alignment requirements? I wouldn't. My paladins weren't paladins because they had to be because of the mechanics. My paladins were paladins because paladins are cool.

I have no desire to play a paladin without mechanical alignment and I explained why earlier, that's not the experience I want (and no I have not played or wanted to play a paladin in 4e though I have played an Avenger which I found lacking as far as the experience of being a character with faith in a being I can't and don't fully comprehend because no matter what I did my divine state/grace/whatever never failed me.).
 

So, in other words Imaro, one of the purposes of mechanical alignment is to enforce player behaviour. Is that a reasonable reading of your response?
 

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