Do alignments improve the gaming experience?

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And in D&D taking the easy route is just as likely to be neutral as it is evil...

I think that's impossible to quantify, myself.

EDIT - That said, in actual D&D practice you very often have a choice between the good, decent, but hard work option, and the expedient option, and the latter often involves killing people who you could keep alive but it would be a hassle, or in other cases leaving other people in severe peril, and the former definitely isn't "neutral" and the second could go either way.
 
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EDIT - That said, in actual D&D practice you very often have a choice between the good, decent, but hard work option, and the expedient option, and the latter often involves killing people who you could keep alive but it would be a hassle, or in other cases leaving other people in severe peril, and the former definitely isn't "neutral" and the second could go either way.

If killing people who you could keep alive was automatically evil... every character in D&D would be evil... since they always have the option to try and subdue someone, so I disagree with your blanket statement.

Edit: Again why context is important...
 

If killing people who you could keep alive was automatically evil... every character in D&D would be evil... since they always have the option to try and subdue someone, so I disagree with your blanket statement.

Edit: Again why context is important...

That's not what I'm implying, D&D's subdual rules are so risky that they're usually not worth using, because it's a huge risk, and thus killing is okay (and so un-risky in 4E that they have to be kind of ignored lest it become so G-rated things get silly). I'm talking about enemies who have already been captured or surrendered. Killing them is frequently expedient, and that is usually evil.
 

I don't believe this claim has any textual support in the D&D rules. For instance, Gygax on p 24 of his DMG says "It is of importance to keep track of player character behaviour with respect to their professed alignment. Actions do speak far more eloquently than professions, and each activity of a player character should reflect his or her alignment."
Sure, actions speak far more eloquently to PC motivations than professions -- no argument there. That the DM would track actions, gauge intent, and render judgments about the morality of those actions is no surprise, but it hardly implies the actions themselves had an alignment independent of the context in which they were undertaken.

In a similar vein, the 3E paladin description follows earlier editions and uses the notion of "an evil act", with no indication that this means a wrongly motivated act. For instance, the fact that the rules text distinguishes evil acts in general from "wilful" evil acts shows that evil-ness, as a status, is not dependent upon will. The AD&D PHB (p 22) used similar language when it referred to a paladin "knowingly" committing a chaotic act or an evil act. This allows that evil acts can be committed inadvertently, and hence enjoy their status as evil independently of the paladin's mental states.
This is quite the red herring, as legal systems have long distinguished between what one knew/understood and what one should have known/understood. Only the former is considered "willful", but this hardly means the latter is "inadvertent," only less malevolent and hence less "bad" according to EGG's view of nobility as articulated in the traditional paladin code.

More broadly, for an "evil act" to be defined in the game as an action undertaken with evil intent, the core books would need to include a definition of what it means for a character to be evil, which they do. But for an "evil act" to instead mean taking an action that is inherently classified as evil regardless of context or motivation, as you suggest, the core books would need to include a definition separate from these factors that explains what it means for an action to be evil, which they don't. I suppose it is possible that past design teams intended your definition to be used but kept forgetting to include the rules necessary to implement it. But the content present in the core books doesn't allow one to adjudicate an "evil act" unless it means an action undertaken with evil intent, which leads me to the conclusion this is what the designers intended.

Which doesn't mean there is no such thing as an "evil act," only that there is no such thing as an inherently evil act regardless of context or motivation.

It doesn't sound like we're likely to agree on this, though, and that's fine. In some ways this disagreement encapsulates the original theme of this thread 150+ pages ago, that there is a significant chunk of the playerbase that just doesn't get anything out of the traditional D&D alignment framework and in many ways finds it a half-baked hindrance rather than an intriguing help. This doesn't lead me to the conclusion that alignment should be scrapped, because there are plenty of people who do find it helpful, but it does reinforce (in my view at least) that alignment should not be a mechanical cudgel with which to pummel one's players. Roleplaying has to be about more than gauging the DM's values and then acting accordingly, or else the "game" has become much more unpleasant than a game ought to be...
 

for an "evil act" to be defined in the game as an action undertaken with evil intent, the core books would need to include a definition of what it means for a character to be evil, which they do. But for an "evil act" to instead mean taking an action that is inherently classified as evil regardless of context or motivation, as you suggest, the core books would need to include a definition separate from these factors that explains what it means for an action to be evil, which they don't.
They do define an evil act. I quoted the d20 definition upthread: an evil act is one which debases or destroys the innocent.

Gygax defines evil in this way:

[T]he tenets of good are human rights . . . each creatur is entitled to lie, relative freedom, and the pursuit of happiness. Cruelty and suffering are undesirable. Evil, on the other hand, does not concern itself with rights or happiness; purpose is the determinant.​

Hence an evil act is one which is rights-violating, or otherwise inflicts suffering when suffering was not warranted.

The two definitions are probably not strictly equivalent - for instance, the d20 definition seems to suggest that it is never evil to inflict suffering on a non-innocent party (so eg cruelty towards the wicked might be permissible in some cases), whereas Gygax suggests that even when suffering is not rights-violating it can still amount to evil. But they are near enough for practical purposes.

legal systems have long distinguished between what one knew/understood and what one should have known/understood. Only the former is considered "willful", but this hardly means the latter is "inadvertent," only less malevolent and hence less "bad" according to EGG's view of nobility as articulated in the traditional paladin code.
Are you a US lawyer? In which case you have identified something about US law that I didn't know.

I had always assumed that negligence in US law has the same meaning as in Anglo-Australian law - where it means something to which a person was inadvertent, but ought not to have been. Negligence is not a species of malevolence, in the sense of subjective malicious intent - it is an objective standard to which non-malevolent conduct is held.

In private law, knowledge is generally defined so as to include certain sorts of imputed knowledge (eg a party is deemed to know X if s/he knows facts that would alert an honest and reasonable person to X, or would put an honest and reasonable person on inquiry as to X.) However, knowledge in this imputed sense goes beyond wilfulness, and so this cannot be the sort of knowledge that is meant in the paladin context.

In criminal law, between knowledge/intention (which in English law tend to be the same thing, but are not always the same thing in Australian law, depending on jurisdiction) and negligence there is recklessness. This can be defined as "knowledge of a risk which ought not to be taken". So recklessness, which is a species of malevolence, is also a species of wilfullness.

A paladin who acts recklessly - ie who runs an unjustifiable risk of debasing or destroying the innocent - loses paladinhood. (Whether that counts as motivation is itself a debatable question - in some systems knowledge of an outcome is equated with intending that outcome (so-called oblique intention) but in others (eg the criminal law of the state of Victoria in Australia) it is not.)

A paladin who inadvertently - ie not wilfully - brings about an evil result need not forfeit paladinhood. This shows that evil cannot be solely about motivation. For instance, a paladin who kills an innocent person while honestly and reasonably believing that person to be a succubus or doppelganger in disguise has done an evil thing. But given that it was neither knowing nor wilfull, the paladin will not forfeit paladinhood. (Though I imagine many GMs might require Atonement, which has as one of its function absolution from evil deeds committed unknowingly or unwillingly - which would inclue evil deeds done out of good motivations.)

EDIT: This also shows that there can be "moral luck" in D&D. If the paladin honstely and reasonably, though mistakenly, believes that a person is succubus in disguise, and kills him/her, then the paladin may have done an evil thing (though without it being knowingly and wilfully done). But if, unbeknownst to the paladin, the victim of the mistaken killing is in fact a doppelganger in disguise, then the paladin has not done an evil thing - but rather has done a different non-evil thing from the one s/he intended.
 
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Just to add to Pemerton's last point. I have never said that those who use alignment mechanics are in the wrong or having badwrongfun. What I have said is that I don't enjoy those mechanics and I hope that they are more optional in 5e than they are in say 3e.

They certainly do not improve my gaming experience. But much of this thread has been people telling me that the reason I don't like mechanical alignment is because I'm doing it wrong.
 

Just to add to Pemerton's last point. I have never said that those who use alignment mechanics are in the wrong or having badwrongfun. What I have said is that I don't enjoy those mechanics and I hope that they are more optional in 5e than they are in say 3e.

You can choose not to use the paladin, alignment issues for clerics, and alignment spells from 3e. How is that somehow not optional? I really don't get the idea that everything from 3e's rules has to be considered in every individual campaign. Frankly, I'd consider it pretty easy to play D&D without alignments at all. I just happen to enjoy using them most of the time.

They certainly do not improve my gaming experience. But much of this thread has been people telling me that the reason I don't like mechanical alignment is because I'm doing it wrong.

Well, you and others have been spinning the negative aspects of how people can use or have used the alignment mechanics in your arguments. Of course people are going to respond by suggesting better ways of using them. If you bend down to pick up something heavy and complain about your back hurting, people are going to tell you to lift with your legs, not your back.
 

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