D&D 5E Do Fighters Still Suck?

[Mistwell]

Not if they get the feat combo at level 4 though. Fighter just geys the next stat buff or feat sooner.

Again, the fighter can get their SECOND FEAT COMBOS going much faster. Four feats, two pairs of them. This is very powerful. Even three feats while others have two is quite powerful. Sentinel plus Polearm Master plus Great Weapon Master is better than just the first two, for instance. Why would you discount this?

 

[Quickleaf]

I'll leave the theory-craft to others.

Anecdotally, at my table observing the fighter in play at low levels (1st-4th) - it's a fricking awesome class that players enjoy greatly. No suckage.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

My main beef is almost everything that looks like a "power option" is also a limiting option. Like Polearm Master, and Sharpshooter.

The fighter ought to be the guy who is, for his level, the master of all kinds of combat. Drop him naked and unarmed into a gladiator pit? He's gonna win, or at least be competitive. Dragon attacks him from 200 yards away? He nails that sucker with his longbow, which incidentally, is so stout that no one but him, and maybe the barbarian (who can't hit the broad side of a barn with it) can draw it. On foot, or mounted, in the air, or under the sea, with any weapon or none, the "fighting man" is the quintessential warrior. Others may equal him, and maybe even exceed him a little, in one particular area, but no one but the fighter, excels in all of them.

Sharpshooter isn't that limiting. Yes, you're best with ranged weapons (especially if you took archery too), but any Sharpshooter is going to be decent with rapiers as well. You also get the interesting option of using nets in combat without disadvantage--you're one of the only characters who can do that. (Crossbow Experts can too, for a different reason.) You're good with longbows at long range, and heavy crossbows at short range, and hand crossbows when you want to be unobtrusive, and with daggers and darts. If you can't afford arrows, you can still kill people with cheap sling bullets (4 cp for 20) or maybe even stones.

Frankly, the versatility is a large part of the reason Sharpshooter is fun. It really isn't that limiting!

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What I would like to see are more feats that provide benefits that aren't as blindingly obvious prime picks. I think Shield Master is an excellent example. A bonus action shove is really only situationally useful. Adding the shield's bonus to Dex saving throws (that only target the shield wielder and no one else) is even more situational. Using a reaction to be granted the effects of "Evasion" on a successful Dex save is something that actually might come up more often, but is also situational. All together, I think they provide a nice set of bonuses that are fun and flavorful to use, but it doesn't feel like if I'm not taking it, I'm really not optimizing my given style of play. I'd like to see more feats along this line for different styles of combat (where are you Daggermaster?).

Aside: I'd like it if Shield Master let you use your bonus action to shove or don/doff a shield. Like Captain America.

That being said, I'd say Shield Master's bonus action shove is not so much "situationally useful" as "consistently useful." There are a handful of things it won't work on, just as there are handful of things that the bard cannot Charm with Hypnotic Pattern, but probably 75% or more of the things you'll face will be shoveable. (Not Huge/Gargantuan, not immune to Prone.) Shoving someone prone grants both offensive and defensive benefits. The opportunity cost is high (a feat and your bonus action), but if my Paladin could get Shield Master for free he'd be like, "Yes, please!" In some fights that would be like increasing his action economy by 50%.

Shield Master and Mounted Combatant are both underestimated, IMO.

 

[Zardnaar]

Again, the fighter can get their SECOND FEAT COMBOS going much faster. Four feats, two pairs of them. This is very powerful. Even three feats while others have two is quite powerful. Sentinel plus Polearm Master plus Great Weapon Master is better than just the first two, for instance. Why would you discount this?

That is a bit overkill A variant human fighter could pull that off by level 6, a Paladin or Ranger by level 8. That character is gonna stink though at ranged combat and there is the overkill aspect of it as well. And also at level 6 a Paladin for example get charisma to all saves and grants that bonus to everyone else in 10'. That build I would rate about the same as a fighter in 3.5 blowing around 6 feats on a feat chain and being good at one thing and getting hosed by everything else.

Here is my Paladin for example by comparison.

Anton Von Salza (sword and board avenger Paladin), lvl 3.

Feats Inspirational Leader, Resilient Con
Rolled Stats
Str 17
Con 16
Dex 10
Int 11
Wis 14

The DM house ruled everyone gets a feat at level 1. My damage is nothing special but I usually have hunters mark going in a dungeon or something and I have a excellent chance of keeping it up. In theory I will not get hosed as much by hold person type effects, at level 4 I plan on having 18 strength and charisma, at level 6 I rant +4 to all saves. If I come across a ranged encounter I can cast bless, in a dungeon I can cast shield of faith for 20 AC, 22 once I have full plate. The power combos in 5E are more about the synergy between the various class abilities rather than brute damage IMHO of course.

I just don't rate dealing damage that highly in 5E. I deal around 1d8+1d6+5 most of the time and I can smite if I need to (I rarely do). I know exactly how to build a high damage dealer and I suspect I would even be good at it as I know the 5E power builds as such. I have higher stats than normal due to rolling well and I am playing with newer players so I don't mind the Goliath Barbarian running around with 19 strength, 18 con, 15 dex GWF dealing uber damage. I have my suspicions said barbarian may not survive anyway (we lack a party healer) and we are about to start PotA which I know sod all about in terms of encounters, plot etc.

I'm happy with my PC, just by existing I make the others in the party better. I chose my way he chose his way not sure which way is better. At least the fighter is not a beastmaster ranger or elemental monk and I like the Battlemaster Fighter and wanted to try that out but we lacked a healer so Paladin it is.

 

[UnadvisedGoose445]

Aside: I'd like it if Shield Master let you use your bonus action to shove or don/doff a shield. Like Captain America.

That being said, I'd say Shield Master's bonus action shove is not so much "situationally useful" as "consistently useful." There are a handful of things it won't work on, just as there are handful of things that the bard cannot Charm with Hypnotic Pattern, but probably 75% or more of the things you'll face will be shoveable. (Not Huge/Gargantuan, not immune to Prone.) Shoving someone prone grants both offensive and defensive benefits. The opportunity cost is high (a feat and your bonus action), but if my Paladin could get Shield Master for free he'd be like, "Yes, please!" In some fights that would be like increasing his action economy by 50%.

Shield Master and Mounted Combatant are both underestimated, IMO.

First of all: Yes. Much yes. That would be a really nice benefit.

As to the rest, I think I may have come across differently than how I actually view the feat. I guess what I was implying with situationally useful is there are a lot of "bigger" things out there that shove won't really work with. Particularly against big things like giants with high strength/athletics to match your shove. So I guess at higher levels it may see a little less use. What I meant to highlight was it's a little less "always on" than Sharpshooter completely ignoring all cover except total, or Polearm Mastery always granting that extra attack. I certainly don't mean to act like it's not potent, just that maybe it's less flashy than the "-5 attack/+10 damage" or getting an extra bonus attack on crits and dropping enemies.

Having said THAT, I just really enjoy how feats have been implemented in this edition. I'd love to see a few more. I wouldn't mind a book that expands on pure martial characters, with feats, alternative actions that replace attacks (basically draw attention to options like shove, grapple, etc), and maybe more "mundane" subclasses, or maneuvers from the Battlemaster, stuff like that. If they can find a way to implement it that pleases the fans and some of the legitimate issues the other side has (inspirational healing), this could be the place for a Warlord too.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Having said THAT, I just really enjoy how feats have been implemented in this edition. I'd love to see a few more. I wouldn't mind a book that expands on pure martial characters, with feats, alternative actions that replace attacks (basically draw attention to options like shove, grapple, etc), and maybe more "mundane" subclasses, or maneuvers from the Battlemaster, stuff like that. If they can find a way to implement it that pleases the fans and some of the legitimate issues the other side has (inspirational healing), this could be the place for a Warlord too.

Yes, especially the "alternative actions" part. The DMG's Disarm maneuver is a good start, but would be awesome to have canonical versions of Blind (grapple your face into the ground somehow), Impair Gestures (capture your hand so you can't cast spells), Mute (stuff a sock in your mouth), Trip, etc. In short, I'd love to see a 5E version of GURPS: Martial Arts.

In fact, I can see Mute being extremely useful for covert attacks, to stop anyone for shouting from reinforcements. I should write that one up for my games--it would see a lot of play.

 

[Mistwell]

That is a bit overkill A variant human fighter could pull that off by level 6, a Paladin or Ranger by level 8. That character is gonna stink though at ranged combat and there is the overkill aspect of it as well. And also at level 6 a Paladin for example get charisma to all saves and grants that bonus to everyone else in 10'

I have seen plenty of paladins in play, and still ZERO of those paladins. I think it's mostly a theorycraft subclass

Anton Von Salza (sword and board avenger Paladin), lvl 3.

See even you didn't go with the saves Paladin

The DM house ruled everyone gets a feat at level 1

Which makes your comparison totally useless of course.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Again, the fighter can get their SECOND FEAT COMBOS going much faster. Four feats, two pairs of them. This is very powerful. Even three feats while others have two is quite powerful. Sentinel plus Polearm Master plus Great Weapon Master is better than just the first two, for instance. Why would you discount this?

So, the fighter gets his first extra feat at 6, so before that, no benefit from an extra feat. At 8th he has three feats while others have 2, and that lasts until 12th. A Variant human fighter has it even better, but any other fighter is /behind/ a variant-human non-fighter until 6th, and doesn't pull ahead until 14th.

And feats are optional, anyway.

Bonus ASIs/feats are a nice nod to 3e bonus feats, but they're not that significant. The Fighter's power comes from the basics numbers: armor, d10 HD, good weapons, maximizing STR or DEX, combat sytle - all leveraged by Action Surege and Extra Attacks. The other little bells and whistles and optional rules are gravy, tasty gravy at times, but without 'em the 5e fighter would still be a DPR champion (pi), and that's enough contribution to success in combat to avoid 'sucking.'

 

[Zardnaar]

So, the fighter gets his first extra feat at 6, so before that, no benefit from an extra feat. At 8th he has three feats while others have 2, and that lasts until 12th. A Variant human fighter has it even better, but any other fighter is /behind/ a variant-human non-fighter until 6th, and doesn't pull ahead until 14th.

And feats are optional, anyway.

Bonus ASIs/feats are a nice nod to 3e bonus feats, but they're not that significant. The Fighter's power comes from the basics numbers: armor, d10 HD, good weapons, maximizing STR or DEX, combat sytle - all leveraged by Action Surege and Extra Attacks. The other little bells and whistles and optional rules are gravy, tasty gravy at times, but without 'em the 5e fighter would still be a DPR champion (pi), and that's enough contribution to success in combat to avoid 'sucking.'

I never claimed the sucked in combat just they sucked because their combat skills are not that impressive in regard to the other classes and they give up everything else to do that. In 2E for example the fighter was a lot better at combat than the Paladin and Ranger just because of weapon specialization. 1E they were outclassed by the Ranger even if you used UA IIRC.