Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[Hussar]

This is true, and 3e is designed to enable a poor GM to run a satisfactory game. In fact it almost _forces_ the poor GM into running a satisfactory game, because when he tries to screw it up he can be told he's deviating from the RAW. However, I think 3e makes it harder for a good GM to run a great game. Certainly it happens, but again it involves deviating from the RAW at times, and the RAW are highly interlinked so you can easily get a cascade of problems. One of my players is a huge 3e fan, but he told me I shouldn't be running it, because it didn't fit my GM style. Now I run C&C and am far far happier, which makes for better GMing.

There's a bit of a danger there though in that statement. The idea that a great game must deviate from RAW and that any game which attempts to cleave to RAW is inferior. I'm not saying that's what you are saying S'mon, but it is a fairly common idea.

Now, I defy anyone to say that they play 100% RAW. That's not what I mean. But, the intent to follow RAW as much as possible certainly doesn't automatically doom a campaign to mediocrity.

 

[molonel]

This is true, and 3e is designed to enable a poor GM to run a satisfactory game. In fact it almost _forces_ the poor GM into running a satisfactory game, because when he tries to screw it up he can be told he's deviating from the RAW. However, I think 3e makes it harder for a good GM to run a great game. Certainly it happens, but again it involves deviating from the RAW at times, and the RAW are highly interlinked so you can easily get a cascade of problems. One of my players is a huge 3e fan, but he told me I shouldn't be running it, because it didn't fit my GM style. Now I run C&C and am far far happier, which makes for better GMing.

I'm glad you're happier running C&C, but I marvel at your descriptions of 3rd Edition.

I've been playing 3rd Edition since six months after it came out. I don't KNOW anyone personally who runs a game purely by the RAW. Everyone has house rules and deviations, many of them quite major.

I almost think you get your impressions of this "cascade of problems" more from reading message boards than from playing the game.

 

[S'mon]

The idea that a great game must deviate from RAW and that any game which attempts to cleave to RAW is inferior. I'm not saying that's what you are saying S'mon, but it is a fairly common idea.

I'm trying to say almost the opposite, that a game which cleaves to RAW is likely better than most games that don't, because most GMs are not that great. Yet conversely, IMNSHO, very few games that cleave strictly to RAW are truly great. I expect it's possible, but I haven't seen it and I have trouble imagining it.

 

[S'mon]

I'm glad you're happier running C&C, but I marvel at your descriptions of 3rd Edition.

I've been playing 3rd Edition since six months after it came out. I don't KNOW anyone personally who runs a game purely by the RAW. Everyone has house rules and deviations, many of them quite major.

I almost think you get your impressions of this "cascade of problems" more from reading message boards than from playing the game.

Ha, no, definitely not! I GM'd 3e regularly for 6 years, from when it came out in 2000 to December 2006. I consistently found that house-ruling 3e led to the cascade effect. I still house ruled, but the head aches got worse and worse until I was driven to seek an alternative system.

Edit: I think Monte Cook's statement that 3e was designed to "Take the DM out of the equation" supports my view, too. 3e is intended to be a robust, comprehensive, interlinked ruleset. It is not designed for house-ruling.

 

[Celebrim]

1st edition treasure 'hordes'

As a counterpoint to the discussion of the abundant treasure in certain published 1st edition modules, I ran through the first few monsters in the 1st edition MM and calculated the expected treasure for defeating a particular monster in its lair.

Aerial Servant: -
Ankheg: 371 cp, 300 sp, 71 ep, 25% chance of 1 gem, 11% chance of 1 piece of jewelry, 6% chance of one magic item.
Giant Ant: 3% chance of one gem, 1.6% chance of one potion
Ape, Gorilla: -
Ape, Carniverous: 260 cp, 210 sp, 50 ep, 18% chance of 1 gem, 8% chance of 1 piece of jewelry, 4% chance of 1 magic item
Axebeak: -
Baboon: -
Badger: -
Barracuda: -
Baluchitherium: -
Basilisk: 420 sp, 390 ep, 880 gp, ~2 gems, 22% chance of 1 piece of jewelry, 60% chance of 1 magic item (no weapons)
Bear: -
Beaver, Giant: -
Beetle, Giant: -
Beholder: 315 pp, ~ 6 gems, ~3 pieces of jewelry, 15% of 1 magic item, 2 potions, ~1 scroll
Black Pudding: -
Blink Dog: 130 cp, 105 sp, 25 ep, 9% chance of 1 gem, 4% of 1 piece of jewelry, 2% chance of 1 magic item
Boar: -
Brain Mole: -
Buffalo: -
Bugbear: 120 cp, 52 sp, 37 ep, 29 gp, 6% chance of 1 gem, 2.4% chance of 1 jewelry, 0.5% chance of 1 magic armor or weapon
Bullette: -
Bull: -
Camel: -
Carrion Crawler: 643 cp, 250 sp, 179 ep, 107 gp, 39% chance of 1 gem, 14% chance of 1 jewelry, 2.8% chance of 1 magic item
Catapolus: 519 cp, 294 sp, 99 ep, 35% chance of 1 gem, 20% chance of 1 jewelry, 8% chance of 1 magic item
Cattle, Wild: -
Centaur: 32 cp, 70 sp, 48 ep, 130 gp, 23 pp, ~2 gems, 29% chance of 1 jewelry, 9% chance of 1 scroll, 1% chance of 1 potion, 3% chance of 1 magic item
Centipede, Giant: -
Cerebral Parasite: -
Chimera: 420 sp, 390 ep, 880 gp, ~2 gems, 22% chance of 1 piece of jewelry, 60% chance of 1 magic item (no weapons)


Numbers aren't exact because I tended to round to the nearest whole number, but they do give you an idea of what the random treasure tables would be generating if you used them as written.

For those without prior experience, '1 magic' item refers to a randomly generated magic item - 20% would be potions and 15% would be scrolls. Scrolls and potions in the hands of intelligent creatures would be expected to be used, as would weapons in the hordes of humanoids. Although it may not be clear, the biggest bulk of the wealth by far comes from gemstones. Keep in mind the 20 sp = 1 gp exchange rate.

And of course, you wouldn't actually get the treasure in even units like that. It would come randomly in a horde so you might fight a band of monsters and get nothing and then fight another band and find 5 magic items and some jewelry. In theory, it would even out.

Looking over the table, the best 'value' on the whole table is Centaurs, who have good treasure by the book (at least by these standards) and are only 4 HD creatures with no special attacks.

It should be obvious that the random tables will not generate large hauls of magic items. If all you fought was bugbears (in thier lair!), you'd have to kill about 200 bugbear warriors and thier leaders to gain a magic weapon.

 

[S'mon]

Now, I defy anyone to say that they play 100% RAW. That's not what I mean. But, the intent to follow RAW as much as possible certainly doesn't automatically doom a campaign to mediocrity.

I don't think 'mediocrity' is a very helpful word here. I'd say it 'dooms' your campaign to be better than ca 80% of non-RAW games, but makes it very unlikely that it'll be in the top (say) 5% of all games. The exact %s are a matter of personal preference, but I think this was the clear design intent of 3e - to ensure that simply following the rules would result in a good game. This was equally clearly NOT EGG's intent with 1e...

 

[scriven]

I'm still not sure why people feel that 1e made buying & selling magic items forbidden.

It didn't. But take a look at the "Placement of Magic Items" section on pages 92 - 93 of the 1E DMG. DMs are strongly advised to control the availability of magic items in their campaigns. The tool by which they're to exercise this control is careful placement of items as treasure. Moreover, "...you need never feel constrained to place or even allow any item in your campaign just because it is listed in the tables. Certainly, you should never allow a multiplicity, or possibly even duplication, of the more powerful items."

That advice is consistent with magic shops where you can buy +1 weapons and potions. It's inconsistent with shops where you can find arbitrary items picked from the books. Indeed, shops of the latter type would completely negate all the DM's care in placing items and avoiding multiplicities.

 

[Hussar]

It didn't. But take a look at the "Placement of Magic Items" section on pages 92 - 93 of the 1E DMG. DMs are strongly advised to control the availability of magic items in their campaigns. The tool by which they're to exercise this control is careful placement of items as treasure. Moreover, "...you need never feel constrained to place or even allow any item in your campaign just because it is listed in the tables. Certainly, you should never allow a multiplicity, or possibly even duplication, of the more powerful items."

That advice is consistent with magic shops where you can buy +1 weapons and potions. It's inconsistent with shops where you can find arbitrary items picked from the books. Indeed, shops of the latter type would completely negate all the DM's care in placing items and avoiding multiplicities.

Now that's true.

OTOH, look at the items that are actually being bought in play. Very, very few pc's comparitively, are buying Vorpal swords. But, there are a plethora of players buying Gauntlet's of Ogre Power (which is a fairly minor magic item in 3e, certainly much less powerful than in 1e). While the rules don't necessarily preclude buying a 100k gp item, in play, you rarely see it done.

In other words, it all ends out equal in the wash.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Don't forget the magical toys that Bilbo gives the hobbit children at his party.
If kids have magic items, why wouldn't adults? They just weren't important to the story.

Geoff.

The map with its moon-writing, and the secret door to the Lonely Mountain were both clearly magical, as was the door into Moria.

 

[Reynard]

See the problem I have is is that some people, Reynard included, seem to think that 3e games are "laden with gear". This is a very personal point of view. The treasure tables in the Monster Manual gave you about a 10-25% chance of getting 1-4 magic items. I know I have those numbers wrong, but they're close.

But randomness isn't the issue at hand, because 3E has a "wealth by level" assumption, most of that wealth being in the form of gear. It doesn't matter if there's only a 25% chance of magic items in a treasure trove. By the time the PCs are done shopping, they'll have the items they want. 3E is laden with gear for this very reason.