D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

[ezo]

I was mostly talking about published modules and the general understanding of what consists a dungeon.

For the record, I have read pretty much every WoTC 5e adventure and ran many of those. Even Dungeon of the Mad Mage lacks the resource management and sense of exploration from earlier editions dungeons.

The modern dungeon is a series of five cool stages for the party to fight in sequence with some plot point at the end.

Oh! My bad.

Yeah, totally.

 

[Umbran]

And that's unfortunate for them, but I won't limit my conversation to WotC only just because some folks are required to tow their line if they want to play 5e at all.

Mod Note:/b]

Do remember, one of the site rules is "Keep it on-topic." While this rule may be more loose than many, since we do have an entire forum for A5E, it is fair for folks to ask you to take your A5E boosts there.

 

[Xenolith234]

It's not clear if you are talking about the 2024dmg specifically or more broadly. Either way, 2e dmg pg104 had such a rule

Spoiler: here

Hovering on Death’s Door
(Optional Rule)
You might find that your campaign has become particu-
larly deadly. Too many player characters are dying. If this
happens, you may want to allow characters to survive for
short periods of time even after their hit points reach or
drop below 0.
When this rule is in use, a character can remain alive
until his hit points reach –10. However, as soon as the
character reaches 0 hit points, he falls to the ground
unconscious.
Thereafter, he automatically loses one hit point each
round. His survival from this point on depends on the quick
thinking of his companions. If they reach the character
before his hit points reach –10 and spend at least one
round tending to his wounds—stanching the flow of blood,
etc., the character does not die immediately.
If the only action is to bind his wounds, the injured char-
acter no longer loses one hit point each round, but neither
does he gain any. He remains unconscious and vulnerable
to damage from further attacks.
If a cure spell of some type is cast upon him, the charac-
ter is immediately restored to 1 hit point—no more. Further
cures do the character no good until he has had at least one
day of rest. Until such time, he is weak and feeble, unable
to fight and barely able to move. He must stop and rest
often, can’t cast spells (the shock of near death has wiped
them from his mind), and is generally confused and fever-
ish. He is able to move and can hold somewhat disjointed
conversations, but that’s it.
If a heal spell is cast on the character, his hit points are
restored as per the spell, and he has full vitality and wits.
Any spells he may have known are still wiped from his
memory. (Even this powerful spell does not negate the
shock of the experience.)

I'm still waiting to see if wotc put any variant rules in the 2024dmg though

Oh, in 2e, yes, but my comment was directed at the 2014 DMG as I’m not aware of any alternate death rules there. I’m thinking I’ll just do a “stand and fight” kind of death now and have them make death saves while still fighting. Any hits taken could seriously impact their chances of survival.

 

[Steampunkette]

But you also presented an extreme view as the preference of your rhetorical opponents, which it is not. That's my objection.

That wasn't my intention. My intention was to create a scale from the most "Dice fall where they may" play to the most "Ignore the dice and go for the story" as a range.

If my rhetorical opponents wind up at the extreme of that range that's also fine, because it's only meant to present a spectrum of play, all of which is appropriate. And if you'll note in that post I explicitly stated the I DO IT TOO. As in I have also done both ends of the spectrum and the in between.

So I am my own rhetorical opponent?

Pre 4e D&D wasn't a horror game, but it still assumed a higher danger level for PCs than more recent WotC offerings.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeah... kiiiinda?

In 3e it was certainly possible for a level 1 character to get critically hit from full to -10hp.

But having 10 rounds to bleed out from 0 is also more forgiving than a maximum of 5 rounds with the dying condition. (Both of which can be savagely curtailed by someone stabbing the body)

You have written and are writing a supplement for A5e that is clearly designed for experienced players. If WotC ever published something half as ambitious and innovation as you I would seriously consider buying it.

WotC won't create a core rulebook that "ambitious" because the potential target audience is too narrow. Supplements? Possibly. But since they just hit the reset button on 5e for the new 6ish edition...

It'll be a while before they build back up.

(Though I'll note that the only reasons my books even appear ambitious is because I'm doing some weird stuff and kinda winging it alone, though Martial Artistry in particular has a lot more hands keeping me afloat. The A5e 3PP Discord Server is a godsend)

Not gonna bother with the whiplash post-quote. On to the "5 minute adventuring day" posts.

Sounds like PF2.

You wound me! I would never make a Feat-Centric ala-carte D&D.

I once converted all spellcasters to the warlock chassis (a mix of at-wills and short-rest casting). It was pretty fun.

In addition to SR spells

• Warlock had their Invocations
• Cleric had their SR Channel Divinity.
• Bard had their SR Inspiration at 1st level.
• Druid have Wildshapes

Etc

All classes had their Long Rest features changed to Short Rest.

Added to that, HP was only used for battle as Stamina; you rolled your Stamina when you rolled Initiative (number of HD was reduced IIRC).

Fall to 0 Stamina in battle or get hit by an hazard out of combat? Lose X max HD! So you'll have less Stamina next encounter. At 0 HD you are Defeated, talked with your DM to decide if your PC died or retired or gained a lasting trait/wound etc

That is a pretty solid structure! Especially when combined with the next post... though I'd still use HD as healing just so combat-based healing magic wasn't a core function of the Cleric/Druid/Bard. After all: Every combat assumes you come in with (nearly) full health and resources after a short rest, and it would still give a "Pause" button in the form of a long rest to mark adventuring days a little more clearly.

The main danger, there, of course, is whether you -make- it to your next short rest.

could be done with 5e as follows:
-Remove hit dice for healing entirely. HP is restored to full after a short rest.
-Reduce max HP to 66% of current max HP.
-divide all per-long-rest resources (including spell slots) by 3, rounding up or down to the nearest whole number. These resources refresh on short rest now.
-At level 13, a spellcaster gets a single 6th level slot.
-At level 17, a spellcaster gets a single 8th level slot.
-All consumable items (scrolls, potions) are reusable each encounter, but each PC may only use a single such item before taking a short rest.

All -really- solid rules that would make for a swifter attrition rate, to be sure. Especially the "Divide by 3" general rule for spellslots... giving Sorcerers/Wizards 1 spell slot of each level gives them a wide and shallow pool...

Personally I was thinking of a "Walking Grouping" where lower level spell slots drop-off as you gain higher level slots. Still a range of 3-4 levels of spells and 2-3 slots per level (at most) but a progression that levels up with you, sort of like how Warlocks cast at their highest level.

4E STRIKES AGAIN! yes i know healing surge and daily power attrition was a thing but sh

I meeeean... no matter what you do there's gonna be attrition of resources. There has to be -some-. Whether it's HP or Arrows or Potions or Hit Dice.

 

[payn]

You wound me! I would never make a Feat-Centric ala-carte D&D.

PF2 is very much not ala-carte D&D. Its closer to 4E with multiclass feats instead of actual multiclassing. While at first level you make a large number of choices, after that, each level up is basically choose 1 of a list of 3-5 things and add +1 to everything.

That said, the comment was more in direction of PF2's veiled encounters base design. There are encounter powers and short rest healing that replenish between fights. Like 4E, it has some dailies, and how much that impacts a character is largely based on class, but its adventuring day limits by attrition can be bypassed easily.

I meeeean... no matter what you do there's gonna be attrition of resources. There has to be -some-. Whether it's HP or Arrows or Potions or Hit Dice.

Yeah, but what is the pacing mechanism? The adventuring day or the encounter? I think that is the question a lot of folks want answered. Im in the adventuring day attrition camp, but I can see why folks find encounter based appealing. I dont think a hybrid works that well. At least its not my preference.

 

[tetrasodium]

Oh, in 2e, yes, but my comment was directed at the 2014 DMG as I’m not aware of any alternate death rules there. I’m thinking I’ll just do a “stand and fight” kind of death now and have them make death saves while still fighting. Any hits taken could seriously impact their chances of survival.

Yea the failure to include optional rules that provide replacements for some or all of the more odious elements on 2014PHB pg197(death/dying death saves null damage beyond zero etc) creating yoyo/wackamole healing was one of the biggest oversights in 5e in the way that omission pointed a spotlight & "It's that GM's fault bob died" at any GM who changes it via houserule before a PC bite it.

One of the playtest packets had a replacement but it quickly got dropped from future packets & there's been no indication of the 2024DMG carrying it or any other variant rules yet

Had it been in the DMG a GM could just say "we are using it because that's the style game I'm going to run" or whatever rather than needing to start by proving that said style shift is even valid as anything other than evidence of abusive killergm. Players would need to argue for a different style rather than standing on "wotc did polls to find out what was fun & they dropped this kinda thing for a reason, [you can't prove it's capable of being fun to anyone]"

 

[Steampunkette]

PF2 is very much not ala-carte D&D. Its closer to 4E with multiclass feats instead of actual multiclassing. While at first level you make a large number of choices, after that, each level up is basically choose 1 of a list of 3-5 things and add +1 to everything.

I mean... yeah. There's multiclass feats. But there's also "Build your own Barbarian" with a list of ancestry feats, class feats, general feats, and skill feats every time you level up.

I'm personally not a fan of that class structure is what I'm saying, there, while making a loose joke about being wounded!

That said, the comment was more in direction of PF2's veiled encounters base design. There are encounter powers and short rest healing that replenish between fights. Like 4E, it has some dailies, and how much that impacts a character is largely based on class, but its adventuring day limits by attrition can be bypassed easily.

Some of the encounter design I find particularly choice, yeah... I also really like the "3 actions" structure with V/S/M each being an action for spellcasting. Freaking -love- that, myself, even if it's not super popular in the wider design community.

But yeah, PF2e is definitely the 4e of 3e if that makes any sense whatsoever!

Yeah, but what is the pacing mechanism? The adventuring day or the encounter? I think that is the question a lot of folks want answered. Im in the adventuring day attrition camp, but I can see why folks find encounter based appealing. I dont think a hybrid works that well. At least its not my preference.

My main thought is to try and maintain the short rest/long rest structure through the use of "Cinematic Short Rests", wherein a short rest can take an hour or a minute or a whole night. And then a "Long Rest" is just a rest in town/safety/etc where you recover hit dice expended during short rests or to get rid of lingering effects (since those make the game more dangerous!)

So there'd kind of be a hybrid but not -really-? You'll spend most of your time taking short rests between fights to recover abilities (including cleric spell slots that can restore your hp before the short rest starts) but you have HD to fall back on if the cleric's down or whatever...

But also you eventually run out of HD and need to take a long rest somewhere safe to recover it and get rid of things like fatigue or other long-term effects...

'Cause I'd -still- use those things. And I'd still have mechanics where you can expend hit dice to do things other than healing, like some sort of blood-mage sacrificing HD for more damage or stealing HD from enemies and things of that nature.

'Cause you never wanna -remove- a lever from game design, y'know? You just wanna increase or decrease it's prominence but keep it in your back pocket to play with later. >.>

 

[Bluenose]

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

Simmary of ancient Greek complaints about children attributed to Socrates.

It wasn't Socrates, though it's often attributed to him. It's probably adapted from something Plato wrote and has been atrtibuted to Socrates later.

Also, an older one.

"Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching,”
From a clay tablet found in Babylonia, dated to around 1600BCE.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I mean dragonfear in particular is there to MAKE the characters be afraid regardless of agency of free will because dragons are special little nuggets that need constant validation that they really are scary.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, but what is the pacing mechanism? The adventuring day or the encounter? I think that is the question a lot of folks want answered. Im in the adventuring day attrition camp, but I can see why folks find encounter based appealing. I dont think a hybrid works that well. At least its not my preference.

The one in 13th Age seems to work reasonably well, but only if people accept the stylization of the "adventuring day" used there.