D&D 5E Do you find alignment useful in any way?

[Malmuria]

OK, so don't use it. There are subclasses in the game which some people also say harm their games...so they simply don't use them!

Getting rid of alignment is work though as well, in the sense that the MM lore very much relies on notions of good, evil, law, and chaos (the different kinds of dragons, for example). If you really want rethink all that for your game it goes beyond just ignoring alignment in the stat block. It's "work" that I wouldn't mind doing, because after all creating and playing in fantasy worlds is a hobby.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

I'm all for making it so alignment has no mechanical impact. I'm not even against omitting alignments for most creatures.

But I've went from not getting the demon vs devil thing when I first got into D&D to the Blood War being one of my favorite aspects of the D&D mythos, and if they do away with demons and devils being warring factions of endless Chaos and surprisingly fair Law I'll be pissed.

I haven't read any D&D novels, but I will say I heard about one that includes a descendant of Glasya who is caught up in a formal complaint filed by an imp underling of hers and now I'm looking to figure out which one that was. Devils having this bureaucratic system engineered for evil that is actually a shockingly fair meritocracy and has laws against devils harming their underlings for no reason is absolutely one of my favorite aspects of D&D lore. Plus devils do way more to fight against demons and protect the Multiverse from the Abyss than the celestials do.

"Greetings. I am Hebarizel, a pit fiend in service to the almighty Lord Asmodeus, God of the Nine Hells of Baator. The demons of the Abyss seek to destroy the foundation of order throughout the Multiverse, throwing all into a malignant chaos that threatens to shatter the cosmos. My supreme lord has seen fit to invest me with the authority to enlist promising souls for the war effort against their chaotic designs. Don't expect angels to save you when the demons come; the celestials are too busy with trivial concerns and only watch as we devils battle the demonic scourge that pours ceaselessly from the Abyss. There are many opportunities of advancement available, and when you are not fighting to keep demons from rending the very fabric of creation asunder you will be reaping the rewards for your service. You could earn your own fiefdom, your own legion, and increase in both personal and political power. Perhaps with centuries of proven service you could even rise to the rank of pit fiend, as I have. What do you say? Will you accept this awesome responsibility and the great rewards that Lord Asmodeus will bestow? Do you possess the courage to protect the Multiverse?"

 

[Mistwell]

Getting rid of alignment is work though as well, in the sense that the MM lore very much relies on notions of good, evil, law, and chaos (the different kinds of dragons, for example). If you really want rethink all that for your game it goes beyond just ignoring alignment in the stat block. It's "work" that I wouldn't mind doing, because after all creating and playing in fantasy worlds is a hobby.

When you are in your 50s and married and working a full time job and driving kids to sports/dance/whatever a few times a week and you have precious short time to engage with the game, this is not work you prioritize. You want to pay someone else, specifically WOTC in this case, to do that for you.

People are not arguing to re-fluff all the monsters in the game. Or if they are, it's certainly not adequately expressed by "remove alignment" arguments as that's a much larger issue than simply removing two characters from monster entries.

 

[Maxperson]

I've never seen a 30 page argument over whether to strip a paladin because of their bonds, traits, etc.

You want to? Add mechanical penalties for bonds, traits, etc. I guarantee you that those threads would happen. Thing is, that doesn't apply to alignment anymore. People are arguing over the past with these threads, not the present. There are no longer mechanics involved. It's time to let it go.

Straightjackets are there to prevent someone from doing something. Character notes you pick are a lot more free form, clear, and direct than the frequently more DM facing alignment.

You pick them both man. You pick alignment just like you pick bond and flaws. You get to interpret alignment with a much greater degree of flexibility, though. Alignment is more vague.

 

[Maxperson]

But surely stories affect people, sometimes deeply? Watching a violent movie might not make people more violent (especially in a quantifiable way), but watching scenes of violence might make you want to stop watching that movie. You may even be ok with violence in some movies and deeply disturbed by it in others, and when you are disturbed, it might not even be that you don't want to watch those movies, but you need to be mentally prepared. The social aspect of TTRPGS exacerbates this dynamic, because the experience is a conversation, sometimes with people you don't know, and if the dm introduces an element they think is fine but you do not, it can be a very negative experience.

As a general rule, people aren't going to be affected that way. If someone is individually traumatized by alignment, elves or dragons, that's the table's responsibility to change.

 

[Maxperson]

Can you name a feature that causes more arguments than alignment?

Hit points.

If it's so useful, we should all be able to agree on what Batman's alignment is (it's CE by the way).

That's completely false. Agreement is not a requirement of usefulness. What you think about alignment, WHATEVER you think about alignment, is utterly irrelevant to how I use it in my game and the uses I find with it.

Low benefit, easily ignored/replaced with better options, and causes problems in the wrong hands... That's why people think it should be axed.

Who the hell are you to tell me how much benefit I get in my game? And if it's easily ignored, there's no need for it to go. Just ignore it.

 

[Maxperson]

When you are in your 50s and married and working a full time job and driving kids to sports/dance/whatever a few times a week and you have precious short time to engage with the game, this is not work you prioritize. You want to pay someone else, specifically WOTC in this case, to do that for you.

People are not arguing to re-fluff all the monsters in the game. Or if they are, it's certainly not adequately expressed by "remove alignment" arguments as that's a much larger issue than simply removing two characters from monster entries.

This. I used to make up my own worlds, lore and everything else back in the day. I haven't had that kind of time in 20 years.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Found the post I was talking about earlier:

my favorite bit of devil lore from the books is when Glasya's succubus daughter's Imp assistant threatened to file what amounts to an HR complaint with Glasya over his treatment by the succubus. The complaint wouldn't have gone anywhere, and in fact the imp would have likely been demoted for bothering Glasya, but it would look bad on her record to have her employees complaining about her performance even if the complaints were illegitimate, so she had to give him some kind of concession despite being the granddaughter of frickin Asmodeus

this is why devils are so much more fun to run than demons, because their ridiculous bureaucracy absolutely takes priority over their evil plans

If anyone can tell me what book that was I'd be grateful.

I'm at least grateful to alignment for making devils in D&D so unique and fun to use as a DM. I doubt that devils would look anything like they do in D&D without the descriptor "Lawful Evil" and writers willing to take the "Lawful" part very seriously. So far I've had players temporarily allying with devils against demons way more often than I have had them actually fight devils.

I also just remembered reading an older adventure called Bzallin's Blacksphere that had a very fun Blood War related background: A beetle-like demon lord named J'zzalshrak kept sending the wizard Bzallin gifts, seemingly for no reason. However, once agents of the Nine Hells noticed Bzallin was getting a lot of support from J'zzalshrak they assumed the wizard was a collaborator helping the Abyss in the Blood War. A pit fiend was summoned by a devil cult and dispatched to Bzallin's keep so it could be utterly destroyed with him in it. Shortly afterwards Bzallin was revived as a lich, one eager to devise endlessly expanding spheres of annihilation for use as WMDs and train mages for J'zzhalshrak so he could get revenge on the devils who killed him for no apparent reason.

 

[Malmuria]

When you are in your 50s and married and working a full time job and driving kids to sports/dance/whatever a few times a week and you have precious short time to engage with the game, this is not work you prioritize. You want to pay someone else, specifically WOTC in this case, to do that for you.

People are not arguing to re-fluff all the monsters in the game. Or if they are, it's certainly not adequately expressed by "remove alignment" arguments as that's a much larger issue than simply removing two characters from monster entries.

I got you. I'm just saying that ignoring alignment, if you take it seriously, also requires building up or finding a toolset for improvising motivations, and potentially necessitates rethinking large elements of the implicit setting. The 28% that don't find alignment useful (according to the scientific poll at the top of this thread) are having to do that work. I think a gaming product should provide tools that will work for at least 80-90% of its players.

 

[Alzrius]

If anyone can tell me what book that was I'd be grateful.

I haven't read them (yet), but I'd guess that this is either from Erin Evans' novel Brimstone Angels or the sequel, Lesser Evils.