Do you find the Mystic Theurge overpowered?

[Saeviomagy]

5th level? Are you nuts?

That means you'd need to be an 18th level caster to take it!

At that sort of level, why don't you just say "naah - you multi-class-casters are just crap, deal with it".

 

[Hygric]

3rd cleric / 7th wizard / 10th mystic theurge gets 3/2/1 7th/8th/9th level wizzie spells and 1+1 7th level cleric spells. Straight 20th wizzie gets 4/4/4. This is before stat adjustments, but that should benefit the straight class caster as they have had only 1 stat to boost for maximum power vs the 2 for the mystic theurge.

I don't think that loosing out on nearly all of your top-end power is a trivial thing, not to mention 6 free spellbook spells (9th level ones to!), 15% greater chance to flop spell res checks 3 bonus feats (10th, 15th and 20th level).

As for metamagic, the lack of high end spell slots will really put a crimp in this class combo's use of metamagic. The wizzie can probably justify a quickened teleport in one of his 9th level slots, but the MT has only 1 9th... so they won't have any meteor swarm / weird / time stop etc in their head.

Sorcerer will be even more hurt due to no 9th lvl spells, Druid cops it due to loosing special powers.

Item creation however, this class will rock! Except that by missing out on the three bonus feats that a straight wizzie would have gotten by 20th, they will have to have made some hard choices about feats, especially as I couldn't imagine playing this class without taking at least spell pen and probably greater spell pen as well.

As a suggestion for those that feel that this class needs just a little more balance, how about having it remove the two classes whose spellcasting is improved from that characters favoured class list. Most of the worries seem to be the 17th wiz / 13th cleric casting combo, and if neither cleric or wizz were a favoured class for that character anymore they will be paying an XP penalty to get that casting combo.

This class is actually quite cleverly built I feel. Nicely balanced by a few hidden flaws. At epic levels though... look out!

 

[maddman75]

It may be because I'm a DM much more than a player. I like prestige classes to mean something. For instance, a group of Loremasters at least has me thinking of wizened sages, consulting ancient texts. Assassins make me think of a guild of killers who use magic to augment thier stealth.

Mystic Theurge makes me think of a list of abilities. You see the issue.

 

[kingpaul]

It's not bad; it actually fills a major gap in character options. OTOH, I would make the requirements 5th level arcane and 5th level divine spells. It's just too easy as is. How about some toss feats as prerequisites?

5th level each?!? That would make the earliest time to take this class at 19th level, as a character won't get their 5th level spells until 9th class level, at the very earliest.

 

[Urbannen]

One slightly mitigating factor is that the class must have high numbers in two mental stats to be effective.

 

[Technik4]

Balanced: If you cannot take more than one prc in your campaign.

Broken: If you can.

Two Words, True Necromancer.

Technik

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Well, the way I look at it is this:

Can a Wiz7/Clr3/MysT10 gain Epic Spellcasting?
Can a Clr7/Wiz3/MysT10 gain Epic Spellcasting?

The answer to both is yes, as the requirements for Epic Spellcasting is to have access to 9th Level Spells, not 20th Caster Level.

Now, instead hit 20th Level as Clr5/Wiz5/MysT10 and take MysT from there on; At 22nd Level, you qualify for Epic Spellcasting (although you don't get a Feat until 24th), and at 25th Level you've got the full Spell output of a 40th Level character (Clr20/Wiz20). Add in the standard assortment of stat enhancers, and it just gets uglier from there.

Is the class overpowered? If your game ends at 12th-15th Level, possibly not, particularly if you attach enough in-setting hooks to the class (organizations, duties, rivalries, etc.). However, reduce the hooks or take this into Epic, and it's way over the top.

So, is 3.5 being written to be even more powerful than 3.0 seems to favor, or simply short-sighted? I don't know. I do know that I'm going to go over the SRD with a fine-tooth comb before I put out any money for it.

 

[green slime]

Well, the way I look at it is this:

Can a Wiz7/Clr3/MysT10 gain Epic Spellcasting?
Can a Clr7/Wiz3/MysT10 gain Epic Spellcasting?

The answer to both is yes, as the requirements for Epic Spellcasting is to have access to 9th Level Spells, not 20th Caster Level.

This is not in doubt. But the requirements to actually learn or cast Epic level spells are so high, no "low" Epic character will be using them soon.

Now, instead hit 20th Level as Clr5/Wiz5/MysT10 and take MysT from there on; At 22nd Level, you qualify for Epic Spellcasting (although you don't get a Feat until 24th), and at 25th Level you've got the full Spell output of a 40th Level character (Clr20/Wiz20). Add in the standard assortment of stat enhancers, and it just gets uglier from there.

EXCEPT, compared to a single classed caster, you have 3 lower caster level, for determining range, effect, SR-penetration, combined with what is probably a lower Prime stat (assuming point buy) as any stat enhancement can be gained by the single classed user.

ALSO, you WILL have FEWER slots of higher than 9th level spells: Improved Spell Capacity adds an increased slot to ONE of your spell casting classes. The single classed spellcaster WILL be gaining MORE epic feats.

Thus, IIRC, a 25th level Wizard will have 5 more feats (2 of them epic!) than the Clr 5/Wiz 5/MT 15.

So if we consider that those two epic feats where Improved Spell Capacity, the 25th level wizard now has at least TWO spell levels over and above the MT. The Wiz also has more Metamagic feats to properly utilise these spell levels as well.

Notice that the Clr 5/Wiz 5/MT 11 CANNOT take Improved Spell Capacity due to inability to cast 9th level spells! Thus increasing even further the distance in high power spell casting.

Is the class overpowered? If your game ends at 12th-15th Level, possibly not, particularly if you attach enough in-setting hooks to the class (organizations, duties, rivalries, etc.). However, reduce the hooks or take this into Epic, and it's way over the top.

It isn't overpowered, there are a lot worse PrC out there. Falling behind three caster levels prior to epic level is a big handicap. Falling behind in highest Spell Level Slots at Epic is also a major Hinder. Admittedly I'm not sure as to how much considering the large number of spells available, that is something that needs to be tested.

So, is 3.5 being written to be even more powerful than 3.0 seems to favor, or simply short-sighted? I don't know. I do know that I'm going to go over the SRD with a fine-tooth comb before I put out any money for it.

Yeah right. Nerfing Haste, Harm, realigning the core classes slightly is REALLY addding to the power base...

 

[Celtavian]

Re

I think it is only mildly overpowered. Extra spells is great and this class will win hands down for versatility, but this Prc won't make wizards or clerics unnecessary.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

This is not in doubt. But the requirements to actually learn or cast Epic level spells are so high, no "low" Epic character will be using them soon.

Except that with each level gained there-after, the less impact this has. Three levels seems like a heavy-hit at 21st Level, but how much impact does it have at 31st? 41st? 81st?

Yeah right. Nerfing Haste, Harm, realigning the core classes slightly is REALLY addding to the power base...

If those changes are followed up by stuff like this, than they shouldn't have bothered. For instance, removing the Ranger's front-load but then following it up with merging Ambi/TWF is an empty gesture. Sure, they remove the front load, which makes Ranger more balanced and cuts the Ranger 1/Whatever X habit, but then they make it unneccessary by making the desired result easier to obtain without it.

Sure, it seems nice, but overall it's an empty gesture.

Admittedly, I'm already using haste from Modern, so I look forward to the change, but don't need it. The harm fix will be nice, though.