Do you find the Mystic Theurge overpowered?

[Grog]

To reiterate: you are NOT underpowered at the lower levels, and then overpowered at the higher levels. You are balanced at the lower levels, and then overpowered at the higher levels.

Actually, I would say you are significantly underpowered at the lower levels.

A 7th level MT throws a magic missile for 2d4+2 damage to one target. His buddy the 7th level wizard throws a fireball for 7d6 damage to six targets.

A 7th level MT casts a cure moderate wounds for 2d8+4 points healed. His buddy the 7th level cleric casts a cure serious wounds for 4d8+7 points healed.

A 9th level MT can cast fireball and fly. A 9th level wizard can cast cone of cold and teleport. A 9th level MT can cast cure disease and remove curse. A 9th level cleric can cast flame strike and raise dead.

An 11th level MT can cast stoneskin and polymorph other. An 11th level wizard can cast chain lightning and disentegrate. An 11th level MT can cast cure critical wounds and restoration. An 11th level cleric can cast heal and blade barrier.

The class isn't quite as bad at the even-numbered levels, because they're only one spell level behind pure casters at that point. But they're always three caster levels lower, which means less damage, shorter duration, harder time dispelling, easier time being dispelled, lower spell capacity in each class, and either one or two spell levels behind a pure caster.

In exchange for this, they get a great deal of versatility. But as someone in the other Theurge topic said, at the lower levels, for this class, versatility just means more ways to suck.

The only point at which this class might be unbalanced is at the very high levels - but even then, the three lost caster levels shouldn't be underestimated.

And of course, at epic levels the class becomes a real problem.

Personally, I wouldn't ever play this class unless the campaign was starting at really high or epic levels. In a campaign that starts up from first level, IMO it just wouldn't be worth sucking so badly for so long just to get a (questionable) power boost at the end.

 

[Psion]

Grog quoth:
versatility just means more ways to suck.

Heh.... that is so quote fodder.

I don't totally agree, though. The idea that vertsatility is a viable commodity is the entire reason behind the multi-class methodology in 3e.

The catch is that some classes layer better than others. Barbarians and fighters layer just fine, for example, because there is a good synergy between their class abilities, BAB, HP, etc..

Spellcasters DON'T have good synergy, because their spell levels don't stack. Every spell level you gain in one class you lose in another. And it's not like one spell level is as good as another, like points of BAB. You lose spell levels, you lose your best spells.

This is what makes this class considerable at ALL.

I'll assert that spellcasting is 90% or more of the wizards "potency" and at least 50% of the cleric's. Despite the loss of your highest level spells, you are still getting the 90% of the class abilities of the wizard and 50% of those of the cleric (give or take). Pretty soon that additional 40% (give or take) begins to overcome the loss of those higher level spells. You extend this into epic levels unchanged, you almost certainly get a major return on your investment.

 

[smetzger]

What do you think of the Wiz17/Cleric3 taking MT on his next level?

 

[Grog]

Heh.... that is so quote fodder.

Just make sure you attribute it properly. It wasn't really my idea; Zappo said something very similar in this topic:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46499&perpage=40&pagenumber=3

 

[Zappo]

I claim fatherhood of the "versatility doesn't really help, it just means that he has a lot of different ways to suck" quote! The world will be mine! Mwahahahaha!!

Ahem...

What do you think of the Wiz17/Cleric3 taking MT on his next level?

I think he'd better do it, of course. It serves as a partial compensation for the shafting he took by lagging behind horribly for the past 20 levels. Even after taking it, he's still lagging. He needs more levels before the gained low cleric levels compensate those lost high wizard levels.

 

[maddman75]

The class is slightly overpowered - enough that I won't be allowing it without modification. I don't allow FR classes either, if that tells you about where I'm at.

The bigger crime is that its boring. This isn't a prestige class, its an idea for how to balance one. I have a problem with classes with zero flavor. Tell me - a mystic theurge is walking down the street, what does he look like?

No idea, because a mystic theurge isn't anything. Monte's Hallowed Mage at least had some flavor to him. And if I'm making up my own flavor I'd just as soon make up abilities that go with them. I ban the shodowdancer for the same reason - I don't know what they are supposed to be.

 

[trancejeremy]

So far it might be boring, but we haven't seen the real flavor text for it (I hope), just a preview on their web site. The original prestige classes were pretty boring in the SRD.

Anyway, at first glance it seems overpowered, but upon playing with different character combinations, it seems okay. And surprisingly clever.

 

[Wormwood]

Just when I thought I had this system figured out, I have a really great 'smack my forehead' moment.

Why didn't I think of this before?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Maddman - I've exactly the opposite problem to you when it comes to PrC's.

Who the hell are the game designers to tell ME what MY character's personality and looks are? Every time I see fluff which dictates how a players character looks or acts, I think "well, that was wasted space".

As for epic levels - I'm still trying and failing to see how having both cleric and wizard spells is likely to make you significantly more powerful than a single classed character. The only thing seems to be that they get double utility out of the epic spell-boosting feats. I'd expect, however, that the one which gives you 10+ spellcasting slots would have to be taken once for each class, and the epic spell rules practically already merge arcane and divine (with some fantastically stupid restrictions of course).

So where's the real benefit? Wheres the game-balance destroying bit?

 

[mkletch]

It's not bad; it actually fills a major gap in character options. OTOH, I would make the requirements 5th level arcane and 5th level divine spells. It's just too easy as is. How about some toss feats as prerequisites?

-Fletch!