D&D 5E Do you let PC's just *break* objects?

It feels to me like so much of this discussion is predicated on a kind of bad faith relationship between the DM and players. But is that how we are actually playing? It's hard to imagine.

Like, I'm not trying to catch out my players, and I assume the same from them. If the player says "I smash the vase" I am always trying to go with how I perceive their intent, and the players understand that we are all on the same side. They'll correct me if I get something wrong, but I also don't see them trying to retcon if they made a mistake by not thinking through the situation. Unless it was kind of a dumb mistake that would have been obvious to character in the situation, and then they just correct it and I generally agree, figuring I could have done a better job on my description. But generally when a players screws up - often through impatience - they own it and we see where it goes. Same goes for the DM - I screw up with my NPCs all the time but c'est la vie.

And as a player...my screw-ups are usually more fun than what I should have done! Life is full of mistakes, and now the plot has a new wrinkle. My bone-headed maneuvers have given us more good memories than my genius ideas, that's for sure (partly because they are so much more numerous).
Why do you go straight to "bad faith relationship" when some people just want clearer communication, where the player is in control of their own character, and the DM doesn't have to establish or assume anything for them, which avoids all the things you go on to describe?
 

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It feels to me like so much of this discussion is predicated on a kind of bad faith relationship between the DM and players. But is that how we are actually playing? It's hard to imagine.

Like, I'm not trying to catch out my players, and I assume the same from them. If the player says "I smash the vase" I am always trying to go with how I perceive their intent, and the players understand that we are all on the same side. They'll correct me if I get something wrong, but I also don't see them trying to retcon if they made a mistake by not thinking through the situation. Unless it was kind of a dumb mistake that would have been obvious to character in the situation, and then they just correct it and I generally agree, figuring I could have done a better job on my description. But generally when a players screws up - often through impatience - they own it and we see where it goes. Same goes for the DM - I screw up with my NPCs all the time but c'est la vie.
Agreed in general, and I appreciate players who take this approach.

However, not all do; and I've seen more than enough attempted take-backs and retcons over time when things go unexpectedly wrong from what seemed like a simple action (a silly example here might be smashing a china vase without realizing it's full of nitroglicerine); and can do without those arguments. Thus, I put my foot down quickly.
And as a player...my screw-ups are usually more fun than what I should have done! Life is full of mistakes, and now the plot has a new wrinkle. My bone-headed maneuvers have given us more good memories than my genius ideas, that's for sure (partly because they are so much more numerous).
This is great, and I say that in a good way!

One classic example from my game of both the good and bad, from about 2001, went like this: party was in a methane-laden swamp, detailed as such in the canned module I was running. The swamp is something of a trap in that while there you meet a few trolls but lighting any sort of fire results in the methane going up as a full fireball. I had narrated that there was a distinct smell of methane or something similar and at least one player, in character, said something like "We'd better not light any fires here". So far so good; and these were four very intelligent players.

Then they met the trolls, and after killing them the party MU - without thinking - blithely cast Flaming Sphere to toast the bodies. The following conversaton went like this:

Me: "OK, you cast you spell - you all need saving throws."
All four players in perfect unison, after a two-second silence: "D'oh!", followed by a roar of laughter.

Saves were failed all over the place, and a majestic meltdown of magic items followed. By the time the dust settled, of a party of about 8 (I forget the exact number) one character was dead, two others were barely alive, and over 100,000 g.p. worth of magic had gone up in smoke. And everyone was laughing....

...until the next week, when the player who had missed that session* showed up and started squawking, demanding retcons and do-overs because his character(s? I think he had two at the time) - while still alive - had lost some expensive gear. That was one long and nasty argument, and turned something everyone else had seen as a silly mistake and gloriously fun moment into a drawn-out ordeal. Soured the Flaming Sphere's caster on the game for years.

* - it had long been established table policy at the time (and still is today) that if you-as-player miss a session your character(s) is(are) still in action, and left in the hands of others to play; which they will in good faith. Any pre-instructions given by the missing player to the DM and-or one or more other players are expected to be followed as closely as practical.
 

Agreed in general, and I appreciate players who take this approach.

However, not all do; and I've seen more than enough attempted take-backs and retcons over time when things go unexpectedly wrong from what seemed like a simple action (a silly example here might be smashing a china vase without realizing it's full of nitroglicerine); and can do without those arguments. Thus, I put my foot down quickly.

This is great, and I say that in a good way!

One classic example from my game of both the good and bad, from about 2001, went like this: party was in a methane-laden swamp, detailed as such in the canned module I was running. The swamp is something of a trap in that while there you meet a few trolls but lighting any sort of fire results in the methane going up as a full fireball. I had narrated that there was a distinct smell of methane or something similar and at least one player, in character, said something like "We'd better not light any fires here". So far so good; and these were four very intelligent players.

Then they met the trolls, and after killing them the party MU - without thinking - blithely cast Flaming Sphere to toast the bodies. The following conversaton went like this:

Me: "OK, you cast you spell - you all need saving throws."
All four players in perfect unison, after a two-second silence: "D'oh!", followed by a roar of laughter.

Saves were failed all over the place, and a majestic meltdown of magic items followed. By the time the dust settled, of a party of about 8 (I forget the exact number) one character was dead, two others were barely alive, and over 100,000 g.p. worth of magic had gone up in smoke. And everyone was laughing....

...until the next week, when the player who had missed that session* showed up and started squawking, demanding retcons and do-overs because his character(s? I think he had two at the time) - while still alive - had lost some expensive gear. That was one long and nasty argument, and turned something everyone else had seen as a silly mistake and gloriously fun moment into a drawn-out ordeal. Soured the Flaming Sphere's caster on the game for years.

* - it had long been established table policy at the time (and still is today) that if you-as-player miss a session your character(s) is(are) still in action, and left in the hands of others to play; which they will in good faith. Any pre-instructions given by the missing player to the DM and-or one or more other players are expected to be followed as closely as practical.
I dunno...seems like you guys had an agreement for how to handle absent players, so I would have made the same call that you did. It's too bad that it led to a lot of drama. Life is too short.

Our group goes both ways. If convenient to the plot, then the missing player's character suddenly has an important task to attend. But if they are in the middle of a dungeon crawl or something then someone else plays their character, under pretty much the terms you describe. Though we often joke that that character is the first one sent into a hazardous situation. That's the risk you take if you miss a session!
 

Why do you go straight to "bad faith relationship" when some people just want clearer communication, where the player is in control of their own character, and the DM doesn't have to establish or assume anything for them, which avoids all the things you go on to describe?
In my home games our communication is completely clear and we never have any issues around it. We are all working together so I don't worry about whether something was said exactly right; if it wasn't, it gets straightened out immediately. We don't really argue with each other.

I don't argue with my beginners in the school campaigns, either. On occasion I have to remind them not to interfere on another player's turn, I've had a few cheating incidents, and several egregious meta-gaming attempts that I've vetoed, but in general the games move fast (they have to; we have limited time) and everyone is on board. The players are always in control of their characters, so I don't really understand where that comment is coming from - I like players to have a TON of story agency, right down to adding to the world building as we play.
 

In my home games our communication is completely clear and we never have any issues around it. We are all working together so I don't worry about whether something was said exactly right; if it wasn't, it gets straightened out immediately. We don't really argue with each other.

I don't argue with my beginners in the school campaigns, either. On occasion I have to remind them not to interfere on another player's turn, I've had a few cheating incidents, and several egregious meta-gaming attempts that I've vetoed, but in general the games move fast (they have to; we have limited time) and everyone is on board. The players are always in control of their characters, so I don't really understand where that comment is coming from - I like players to have a TON of story agency, right down to adding to the world building as we play.
You didn't answer as to why you go straight to "bad faith relationship" as an explanation for the clarity some of us seek. And again, we're talking about something as simple as "I smash the vase with my bare hand" rather than "I smash the vase" so that the DM can determine what happens next without saying it for the player (or needing to get something "straightened out" as you say). What about that suggests a "bad faith relationship" to you?
 

You didn't answer as to why you go straight to "bad faith relationship" as an explanation for the clarity some of us seek.
Because of this:
I've seen more than enough attempted take-backs and retcons over time
This player has experience of players using vague descriptions in order to, to put it bluntly, cheat. Their unfortunate experiences, which I have never experienced, has led to a breakdown in the trust relationship with their players. So they feel it is necessary to be strict in the way they deal with action declarations. Lack of mutual trust = "bad faith relationship".

Thus, if a DM was to use session zero in order to lay down the law with regards action declarations, I would interpret that as "the DM does not trust me not to cheat". Now, personally, I would not play in a game where the other players did not trust me to play fair, so my reaction would be to politely quit the game and not play with that DM.
 


The notion that it's somehow adversarial to expect players in a RPG to declare actions, in the sense of describing, to some context-relative degree of specificity, what it is that their PCs do, is very strange to me. Declaring actions, in that sense, seems to be a significant part of the point of playing a RPG!
Agreed. That said, I've spoken with more than one DM on here who goes much, much too far in the other direction. Any word that comes out of your mouth is instantly and irrevocably canon. Any declaration, no matter how clearly joking it might be, is instantly (and often ruthlessly) implemented. The usual justification given is some variation of "have to train the players not to goof around," rather than "not to cheat," but either way, it's not exactly what I consider good-faith DMing. Depressingly popular DMing, on the other hand...
 

Because of this:

This player has experience of players using vague descriptions in order to, to put it bluntly, cheat. Their unfortunate experiences, which I have never experienced, has led to a breakdown in the trust relationship with their players. So they feel it is necessary to be strict in the way they deal with action declarations. Lack of mutual trust = "bad faith relationship".

Thus, if a DM was to use session zero in order to lay down the law with regards action declarations, I would interpret that as "the DM does not trust me not to cheat". Now, personally, I would not play in a game where the other players did not trust me to play fair, so my reaction would be to politely quit the game and not play with that DM.
Why does someone else's issue mean that I am somehow failing to trust my players not to cheat? I want specificity solely for the purpose of being able to effectively narrate what happens, rather than make a guess as to what the player meant.
 

Why does someone else's issue mean that I am somehow failing to trust my players not to cheat?
It doesn't mean that you are doing it, but if you treat players as if they are likely to cheat, then they may well draw the conclusion, all be it erroneously, that you do not trust them.
I want specificity solely for the purpose of being able to effectively narrate what happens
Then you can ask for more detail at the point where it is necessary to do so, because you trust your player not to try and second-guess why you are asking.

But there is no reason the DM can't be just as vague as the players: "I smash the vase" "Okay, the vase is smashed". Everyone can draw their own conclusion about how the vase was smashed, and it makes no difference.
 

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