Do you like the uber-mensch?

[mojo1701]

1. Not as good as the show indicated
2. They tended to run away a lot
3. Inferior technology. Old Russian tanks < New US Tanks.
4. No air force of significance since the very beginning of the first war.
5. Baathist cronies in important military positions instead of qualified folks.
5. Their air defense strategy was as follows: Each flak battery is assigned a section of the sky. Fire at random at that area and hope you hit something. (They may have initially had a better one, I don't recall, but evnetually, it was that one).

I believe it was a joke.

 

[WayneLigon]

I don't mind it. I like my heroes to be really capable. I guess it depends on who is writing them and what the other characters are like.

 

[Warrior Poet]

Gandolf in LotRs.

I'd like to make a case for Gandalf not being an ubermensch.

Which sounds crazy, I know, considering he is a maia, a transcendent and eminently powerful being, the only member of the fellowship capable of facing a balrog (also a maia), and possessed of breathtaking knowledge and wisdom.

Even looking over what I just wrote, it feels like I'm digging myself deeper into a hole. Nevertheless! Onward!

Gandalf is tremendously powerful, and yet, despite this, he is limited. Maybe this is the Phoenix condition you reference (I don't know those comics, so I can't comment), and maybe he has to be conveniently "removed" so that everyone else can shine, but I don't really feel that's the case. For one thing, he isn't really removed until the balrog pulls him down into the depths of Khâzad-dum, and even when he is in the fellowship, everyone else continues to contribute (often significantly; it is one of the hobbits who "solves" the riddle of the door into Moria, for example). Even when he returns as Gandalf the White, he continues to struggle against the enemy. He does not merely stand at the walls of Minas Tirith and blast away every orc as far as the eye can see. Yet we know he is tremendously powerful.

Part of it is Tolkien's world, and the scales of power do not lend themselves to easy measure on a quantified chart. I get a chuckle everytime someone tries to "stat" the Lord of the Rings characters. "Gandalf's only 5th level!" Sure. A 5th level demi-god. Alternately, if he's a demi-god, what's he doing with these low(er) level flunkies? It doesn't work, to my mind, so it's not worth trying, and that's the nature of Tolkien's vision.

Also, despite all that power, Gandalf still can't take the ring. Sauron's a maia, and he made the darn thing, why can't Gandalf just sprint that bad boy on up the mountain side, flip it into the fire, then head for the beach and a well-deserved umbrella drink. Despite his power, he is still potential prey for the lure of the ring (Saruman's wisdom exceeded that of Gandalf, and he fell easily prey to the lure of the ring). There's such a disparate quality to the power exhibited by, well, just about everything in Tolkien's world. Gandalf's powerful in some areas (tremendously so), less in others, despite his nature as a transcendental being.

I'm probably not making much of a good case for it, but I don't think he's an ubermensch in the same way that Superman, Captain Marvel, and some other examples are.

Anyway, there's others here who could argue the case better than I could, and there's still others who'll shoot terrific holes in what I've posted here, so there it is.

Warrior Poet

 

[nyrfherdr]

I don't like the ubermensch concept in an ensemble cast, whether in a book, comic or on screen.

If the story is about the ubermensch, then I don't mind so much.

Nice topic, thanks.

Just some ramblings from the nyrfherdr

 

[Rackhir]

Anyway, there's others here who could argue the case better than I could, and there's still others who'll shoot terrific holes in what I've posted here, so there it is.

Warrior Poet

Actually I think that's quite an interesting take on things. I would argue with one point though. The fact that Sauruman fell prey to the lure of the Ring would indicate that his wisdom was less than Gandalf's.

 

[Desdichado]

Excellent post, Warrior Poet! Just wanted to say that before--like the tool supreme that I am--I quibble with one of your minor points.

Saruman's wisdom exceeded that of Gandalf, and he fell easily prey to the lure of the ring.

I've also assumed that that isn't literally true; in the Unfinished Tales essay "Of the Istari" or whatever it was called exactly (I'm embarrassed not to remember!) I think it was pretty clearly spelled out that Gandalf was the wisest of all the ones sent back to Middle-earth, and that was specifically the reason Manwë selected him.

It's also obvious that he was the most modest of them all, which explains his claim that Saruman was the wisest of them all too. Despite the fact that he said that, it's clear that other characters don't share that assessment; Galadriel and Elrond both put their trust in Gandalf as opposed to Saruman, even before he reveals himself as a traitor.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

friggin' MacGyver

now I am forced to acknowlege that MacGyver, who I love to death, is a bit of an ubermensch. I mean, he's incredibly good at mechanics, chemistry, physics, biology, medicine, ecology, he's a pilot, he can get by in a dozen languages, he can fight if he needs to even though he doesn't much, he can talk people into or out of things.... luckily it's his show and there is a very small supporting cast.

So ubermensch characters can work in solo stories, it seems, but you have to be very careful with them in groups.

 

[Warrior Poet]

The fact that Sauruman fell prey to the lure of the Ring would indicate that his wisdom was less than Gandalf's.

Well said. Yes, I think you're right. I was thinking of Gandalf's own admission of Saruman as "the wisest of our order," when I formed the argument, q.v.:

I think it was pretty clearly spelled out that Gandalf was the wisest of all the ones sent back to Middle-earth, and that was specifically the reason Manwë selected him.

It's also obvious that he was the most modest of them all, which explains his claim that Saruman was the wisest of them all too.

Excellent points all around.

I quibble with one of your minor points.

You didn't even buy me a drink first!

Seriously, thanks for the clarifications. Y'all are right on.

Warrior Poet

 

[frankthedm]

I Prefer the 7 to 8 foot tall SuperNazi style Ubermensch.

 

[Captain Tagon]

I don't mind it as long as a good story is told in the process. Afterall, people in real life aren't at all equal either.