Do you think the ___ Orb line of spells are too powerful?

Are the ___ Orb line of spells, most recently in the Spell Compendium, to powerful?

  • Yes, very over powered / I ban them.

    Votes: 26 22.8%
  • Yes, moderately to strong for their level.

    Votes: 44 38.6%
  • I'm not sure, but they make me uneasy...

    Votes: 16 14.0%
  • They are fine as is.

    Votes: 28 24.6%
  • They are horrible spell choices. / underpowered

    Votes: 0 0.0%

paragondragon said:
and the regular orbs do 1d6 up to a maximum of fifteen
They scale to 15d6 because they're 4th level but are confined to a single target.

except force which is only 10d6 max
[Force] damage can cross the ethereal barrier; it will hit all manner of ghoulies and ghosties. It also does not have an associated energy resistance.

and sound which is 15d4 max.
It is very rare for enemies to have Sonic resistance, except deaf folks and those in the area of a Silence spell.

Basically these damage caps and dice are varied so that one Orb's usefulness will be approximately equal to the other Orbs over the course of a campaign; there is no "best orb".

I assume the Lessers are 1d8 to make up for their slower scaling rate; they are "1d8 +1d8/2 levels, max 5d8" right?
 

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Well, they are practically identical to other range touch energy spells with no save except:

1) They have no Spell Resistance. This is big at high levels. The main defense against Orbs at high level is having cover/concealment (or the caster rolling a one which is unlikely) or having mega-hit points and the latter will not last long. Even energy resistance is somewhat limited against them since some casters like Warmages can pick and choose which to cast.

2) Most of them have an additional one round effect (or in the case of Orb of Force, it does a lot more damage than other comparable Force spells instead and has few defenses and can blow through incorporeals). "Oh, I dazed you? Great. I get to Orb you again next round and there is nothing you can do about it.". Not exactly the same as save or die, but close enough.

3) They blow through Golems.

4) If interpreted one way, they blow through Antimagic Fields.

5) If interpreted one way, they stick around forever. "Hey Johnny, come play with this Orb of Fire".

6) They are Conjuration energy spells that are stronger than any similar Evocation energy spells. That's just plain wrong.

7) At high level, they often do 50+ points of damage which results in a save versus massive damage. Even if the save is easy to make, anyone can roll a one and there are even high level opponents who might have a 25% or more chance of missing a DC 15 Fort save. It's not always 5%.

8) Like other range touch spells, they do double damage on a successful critical. And, sneak attack damage adds to them. Although this is true for other range touch spells and not unique to Orbs, the fact that there are few defenses against them means that about 4% of the time, they are nearly an insta-kill spell (shy of extenuating circumstances and in addition to the massive damage chance). The other range touch spells are not quite this bad due to fewer defenses (and lower damage caps).

9) They do what no other 4th level (or higher) spell does: extend a single target energy attack to 4th level which raises the damage cap to 15D6. One set of balance to high level area effect energy spells are that a) they have saves for half damage, b) they have spell resistance, c) they have situations in which casting them is harmful to the party. This spell does not have these limitations and introduces a damage power level beyond what normally can consistently be done at higher level.

10) Orbs are also a great mop up spell since they tend to do average damage most every time and there are few defenses against them. The Fighter wounded the BBEG? Great. Mop him up with an Orb. Round one or two, the BBEG is dead. Next. ;)

11) Metamagic to improve damage? Orbs are low enough level that Empower and Maximize can both be placed on them even without Metamagic Rods or Sudden Metamagic feats or Arcane Thesis or Incantatrix metamagic abilities.


People might not be bothered when their PCs throw these around, but just let a bunch of NPCs start chucking them at the PCs and see if your players think that are ok then. ;)
 

I voted fine as is.

My subjective evidence is that of the people who commonly play arcane spellcasters in our group of 8+, the best player (a math whiz who analyzes each one of his spell choices) doesn't use them. In fact, I'm just about the only one who does.
 

Drowbane said:
Broken?
No. Arcane Thesis, for example, is broken.

Overpowered?
Maybe.

Poorly thought out?
Absolutely. Conjuration didn't need to step on Evocation's toes like this...
No, Arcane Thesis isn't broken. It's overpowered.
That's why we call the feat "Overpowered Fireball" in our group and limit it to fireballs only.
Okay, that's not really true, but the wizard that has the feat fits the description
:)
 



Mustrum_Ridcully said:
No, Arcane Thesis isn't broken. It's overpowered.
That's why we call the feat "Overpowered Fireball" in our group and limit it to fireballs only.
Okay, that's not really true, but the wizard that has the feat fits the description
:)

Can you give me an example of why you think Arcane Thesis is overpowered? I've had a look at the feat, and it's not really any different from something like Metamagic Focus or one of the other feats that reduces metamagic penalties. The +2 caster level is nice, though.

Pinotage
 


They are way out of whack, for all the reasons listed above, plus the orb of force. No, really. Non-magical force? Wtf?

Force, unlike some others have suggested above, is not an energy type. So, when you say "they are only one energy type" you are incorrect.

My suggested fix is to ban orb of force (and almost any other new [Force] spell), make all the others evocation, allow SR and a save. IMO, any spell that allows an attack roll is subject to abuse with critical threats, etc. That last thing I want to see is 20d6 no save for half no SR for a measly 4th level spell. But, I could be wrong.
 

KarinsDad said:
People might not be bothered when their PCs throw these around, but just let a bunch of NPCs start chucking them at the PCs and see if your players think that are ok then. ;)

That's actually what made me post the thread. One of the opponents of the PC's has one of these spells as well as some metamagic capability. Things will be interesting I'm sure.
 

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